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Old 12-12-2009, 06:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said,

According to dispensationalism, when is the Day of the Lord? Would you say it is at the Revelation or at your imaginable pre-tribulation rapture?
It is a common mistake among postdispensational rapturists to equate the beginning of the day of the Lord with the Second Advent. That is, with the Lord's return at the End of the Tribulation. There are numerous passages dealing with the day of the Lord that when taken together, describe it as covering a vast period of time.

Paul had told the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 5:1 concerning the times and the epochs (Dispensations), that there was no need for them to know when the church age was going to end. There had been no specific date revealed for the rapture. What Paul told them was that the rapture would come ''like a thief in the night.'' [v.2] (Which means that when it occurs, it will happen quickly.) And that the rapture would open the door to the ''day of the Lord.''

The Day of the Lord is a time of judgment which covers a period of more than a thousand years. It covers the time of the Tribulation (Isaiah 13; Revelation 6:15-17) which follows the rapture of the church (1 Thess. 5:1-11), the Second Advent of Christ (Isaiah 34:1-8), the entire Millennial reign of Christ (Zephaniah 3:14-17), the destruction of the present heavens and the earth, and the creation of the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

During the Millennium, the Lord will immediately judge sin. This is why it is called the day of the Lord. But also, in Zephaniah 3:14-17 there will be great blessing 'in that day.'

Since the 'Day of the Lord' involves the time of the great Tribulation which is before the Second Advent of Christ, and since the rapture is what begins the 'Day of the Lord', this places the rapture before the Tribulation.

John F. Walvoord writes concerning the day of the Lord; ''Posttribulationists usually argue that the prophesied period of the Day of the Lord does not begin until the Second Coming. Because the Day of the Lord begins at the Rapture, it is therefore argued that the Rapture must be at the second Coming also.

As brought out before, the Day of the Lord is a descriptive term for any period in which God judges the world directly. There were days of the Lord in the Old Testament, but the future great Day of the Lord is the one describing the period leading up to the second coming of Christ.

Rather than beginning at the Second Coming, the Day of the Lord will include the time of tribulation preceding the Second Coming. This is supported by many Scripture passages. (Isa 2:12-21; 13:9-16; 34:1-8; Joel 1:15-2:11; 2:28-32; 3:9-21; Amos 5:18-20; Obad. 15-17; Zeph.1:7-18). According to 1 Thessalonians 5, the day of the Lord will begin at the rapture. But if the Day of the Lord, according to the Old Testament, includes the period of time before the Second Coming, as the Old Testament describes it, then the Rapture will have to occur before the second coming of Christ. Accordingly,the posttribulational view assuming that the Day of the Lord begins at the Second Coming, lacks scriptural support.''

(Major Bible Prophecies, John F. Walvoord, p. 349-350)

Quote:
BTW, we have proven pre-tribulationism and your dispensationalism very inaccurate and heretical in nature.
I have already shown in some detail that Dispensations are a Biblical truth. Here once again, is the link to my thread concerning dispensations.

Dispensations In The Bible.

And here are two verses that clearly show dispensations.

1) Eph. 1:9-10

2) Eph. 3:1-12

Where the words 'administration' and 'stewardship' are given in these verses, these are references to dispensations.

Between the 'KJV' and the 'NASV,' the Greek word OIKONOMIA is translated as dispensation, as administration (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10), and as stewardship (Luke 16:2-4)

1 Cor. 9:17 ''For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is commited unto me.''

Eph 1:10 ''That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in Him.''

Luke 16:2-4 ''And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? Give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest no longer be steward. 3) Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? For my lord taketh away from me the stewardship. I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. 4) I am resolved what to do, that when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.''

A dispensation is God's administration of His plan in a particular way, to a particular group of people, during a particular period of human history. Gentiles, Israel, the Church.

Again, if anyone is interested in learning something about dispensations, go into my link.

Last edited by Mike555; 12-12-2009 at 07:04 PM..

 
Old 12-12-2009, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,214,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I'm posting this again because there was so much written garbage that came after.

I found another good site that explains the Rapture and what will happen very well. Be sure to scroll down to read the whole article.

www.raptureprophecy.com
In the story of Noah, the raptured Christians are Noah and his family right?

So you say that Noah and his family were taken away? But actually didn't all people start on earth and Noah and his family were the only ones LEFT on earth? So wouldn't the ones left be the Christians while the others are destroyed?

Just one of a couple of things I question about this article.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 07:05 PM
 
5,477 posts, read 4,259,659 times
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Mike555;

You yourself said, in other posts, that the Day of the Lord could be any time (depending on context) between the tribulation and the New Heavens and Earth.

In the context of I Thess.5 Paul expresses that the Day of the Lord is the day when he comes as a thief verse 2 and 4. This happens at the end of the Tribulation not the begining as seen in Rev.16:15. So verse 9 is in reference to that Day when we are delievered from the Judgment of God becuase we are in Christ. But the wicked will not experience that deliverance.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 08:21 PM
 
392 posts, read 461,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
In the story of Noah, the raptured Christians are Noah and his family right?

So you say that Noah and his family were taken away? But actually didn't all people start on earth and Noah and his family were the only ones LEFT on earth? So wouldn't the ones left be the Christians while the others are destroyed?

Just one of a couple of things I question about this article.

Gideon said, Ahhh, very very good and true. We have agreed on something.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 08:25 PM
 
392 posts, read 461,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Mike555;

You yourself said, in other posts, that the Day of the Lord could be any time (depending on context) between the tribulation and the New Heavens and Earth.

In the context of I Thess.5 Paul expresses that the Day of the Lord is the day when he comes as a thief verse 2 and 4. This happens at the end of the Tribulation not the begining as seen in Rev.16:15. So verse 9 is in reference to that Day when we are delievered from the Judgment of God becuase we are in Christ. But the wicked will not experience that deliverance.
Gideon said,
There is your answer Mike. The Day of the Lord is when the rapture occurs; it is elementary my dear Watson, elementary.
Shiloh1 is precisely on target; The Day of the Lord also brings the wrath of God on the wicked in all its fullness. The wrath of God is not during nor is it the Great Tribulation but rather it is fallls at the end. The Great Tribulation or that 3.5 final years of human history under Satan's rule is Satan wrath. Here is the proof that The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath:

Satan's wrath for 3.5 years not God's; let's not call the devil's wrath God's. Lest we say God is killing the saints, persecuting them, chopping their heads off during the GT. This is the work of the devil not Gods. If you think that the tribulation is God's wrath, imagine what you will think when it arrives. You will think Satan is God and he is pouring his wrath on the wicked, by killing the saints, scary.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-12-2009 at 08:39 PM..
 
Old 12-12-2009, 09:19 PM
 
19,704 posts, read 15,080,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Mike555;

You yourself said, in other posts, that the Day of the Lord could be any time (depending on context) between the tribulation and the New Heavens and Earth.

In the context of I Thess.5 Paul expresses that the Day of the Lord is the day when he comes as a thief verse 2 and 4. This happens at the end of the Tribulation not the begining as seen in Rev.16:15. So verse 9 is in reference to that Day when we are delievered from the Judgment of God becuase we are in Christ. But the wicked will not experience that deliverance.
I did not say that the Day of the Lord could be any time BETWEEN the Tribulation and the new heavens and earth. I said the the Day of the Lord INCLUDES the Tribulation. And the Day of the Lord begins as a result of the rapture which precedes the Tribulation. And I have provided the Scripture that confirms it.

The fact that 1 Thess 5:2 and Revelation 16:15 contain the phrases 'a thief in the night', and 'I am coming like a thief,' do not mean that the rapture and the Second Advent are the same. The phrases have the meaning of coming quickly. They mean that when Christ comes, He comes quickly. The 'Day of the Lord' is said to come quickly in 1 Thess 5:2. When Christ comes at the rapture, He comes quickly, just as He comes quickly at the Second Advent. Any part of the judgments that are poured out during the Tribulation come quickly.


Think about what this is saying.The 'Day of the Lord as it relates to the final one thousand plus years of human history, begins with the rapture. I have provided the Scripture to confirm that. And then the Tribulation follows the rapture, and then the the second advent follows the tribulation.

Since the rapture Begins the 'Day of the Lord', and since the Tribulation is included in the 'Day of the Lord', that means the tribulation comes After the rapture.

Now understand what Paul is telling the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 5. First, verse one, the timing of the rapture is not specified. Then in verse two, Paul tells them that the Day of the Lord will come quickly. Again, the Day of the Lord begins with the rapture. More accurately, the rapture signals the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Now, in verse three, the first half of the Tribulation is being referred to. Everyone is saying 'peace and safety.' They have been lulled into a false sense of security by the peace treaty of the antichrist. But then destruction comes all of a sudden. This is the second half of the Tribulation beginning. Then in verse four, Paul tells them that the 'Day of the Lord'-referring to the Tribulation will not overtake them like a thief, because they are not in darkness. Another way of saying this is that the Tribulation is God's judgment poured out on an unbelieving world. But the Church, that is the body of believers in Christ are not of this world. Christians are in the world but are not of the world. Therefore, the Church will not go through the Tribulation. Verse five says 'for you are all sons of light and sons of day.' Therefore in verse nine, 'For God has not destined us for wrath, but for attaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.' Now, salvation also refers to the resurrection of the body. Verse ten goes on to say, 'that whether we are awake--living, or asleep--dead, we may live together with Him. The resurrection or rapture. And so in verse ten, Paul tells them to 'encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.'

Paul told the Thessalonians that they would not go through the Tribulation, but would be delivered from it. They will not go through any of the judgments of the Day of the Lord because they will be in Heaven.



Read the excerpt I included in the post from the book, 'Major Bible Prophecies.'
 
Old 12-13-2009, 01:50 AM
 
19,704 posts, read 15,080,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said,
There is your answer Mike. The Day of the Lord is when the rapture occurs; it is elementary my dear Watson, elementary.
Shiloh1 is precisely on target; The Day of the Lord also brings the wrath of God on the wicked in all its fullness. The wrath of God is not during nor is it the Great Tribulation but rather it is fallls at the end. The Great Tribulation or that 3.5 final years of human history under Satan's rule is Satan wrath. Here is the proof that The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath:

Satan's wrath for 3.5 years not God's; let's not call the devil's wrath God's. Lest we say God is killing the saints, persecuting them, chopping their heads off during the GT. This is the work of the devil not Gods. If you think that the tribulation is God's wrath, imagine what you will think when it arrives. You will think Satan is God and he is pouring his wrath on the wicked, by killing the saints, scary.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The Day of the Lord begins as a result of the rapture. Scripture has been provided. The Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation. Now since the Rapture begins the Day of the Lord, and since the Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation, and again, Scripture has been provided, then logically, the rapture occurs before the Tribulation. It is not a difficult concept to understand. Since the Bible provides the Scripture that verifies that the Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation, there is no excuse for claiming that it doesn't.

The Day of the Lord is a reference to direct divine judgment on the earth. The Tribulation is direct divine judgment poured out on the earth. Zephaniah 1:14-18 relates the Day of the Lord to the Tribulation.

During the Tribulation both the wrath of Satan on believers and the wrath of God on an unbelieving world occur. God's wrath is poured out in the sixth seal judgment (Rev 6:12), as a response to the persecution of His saints in the fifth seal.
 
Old 12-13-2009, 02:12 AM
 
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The Scripture says, paraphasing, if the righteous scarcely, few in number, be saved where will the sinners stand. from this we can plainly see that being merely righteous is not enough. You must repent, death of your will, and be baptized, symbolically buried, in the name of Jesus Christ to be counted in that few. Of course the significance of naming Jesus in the baptism is that by doing so you declare plainly that Jesus was God with us in flesh and blood. This understanding is the vary doctine and gospel of Christ.
 
Old 12-13-2009, 04:25 AM
 
150 posts, read 255,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Day of the Lord begins as a result of the rapture. Scripture has been provided. The Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation. Now since the Rapture begins the Day of the Lord, and since the Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation, and again, Scripture has been provided, then logically, the rapture occurs before the Tribulation. It is not a difficult concept to understand. Since the Bible provides the Scripture that verifies that the Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation, there is no excuse for claiming that it doesn't.

The Day of the Lord is a reference to direct divine judgment on the earth. The Tribulation is direct divine judgment poured out on the earth. Zephaniah 1:14-18 relates the Day of the Lord to the Tribulation.

During the Tribulation both the wrath of Satan on believers and the wrath of God on an unbelieving world occur. God's wrath is poured out in the sixth seal judgment (Rev 6:12), as a response to the persecution of His saints in the fifth seal.
The day of the Lord is about the very End judgement and the RETURN of JESUS to the Earth standing on the Mount of Olives and doing His thing. [Zechariah 14]

It has absolutely nothing to do with a "pre-tribulation" rapture.
 
Old 12-13-2009, 06:17 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,585,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
In the story of Noah, the raptured Christians are Noah and his family right?

So you say that Noah and his family were taken away? But actually didn't all people start on earth and Noah and his family were the only ones LEFT on earth? So wouldn't the ones left be the Christians while the others are destroyed?

Just one of a couple of things I question about this article.
No Noah and his family were not raptured, as you well know. The point is that they were "protected" from the coming destruction, as were Lot and his family. They were not "left behind"......they were miraculously saved by God's grace. That is the point of a "Rapture". God always protects his saints from coming destruction. And it's coming.
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