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Old 12-24-2009, 01:08 PM
 
392 posts, read 325,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
You want scripture?? Well here you go:


The Rapture in: 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15:

There is no debate that 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 teach on the rapture. Both chapters also teach the
resurrection and of the trumpet blast. Neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation before the
rapture comes. There is no debate that Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 teach on the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power after the tribulation. Neither of those chapters speak of the rapture, nor of a resurrection, nor of a trumpet blast.
...........continued in next post.............

Gideon said, wow, I won't post all that other scripture you also take out of context. Keep in mind, I Thes 4 says nothing of the saints escaping tribulation either.

II Thes 1 says we will have tribulation until Jesus is revealed, revelacion, apokolypcia, epiphany, and paroucia all occur here, btw. He returns to bring wrath and judgment on the wicked whom trouble us until he is revealed. So inspite of the fact that II Thes 1 says we are to be troubled or suffer tribulation until Jesus is revealed in flaming fire, taking vengeance on our enemies at the end of the GT; you still think you will escape tribulation? Maybe so, but you will be deceived by the antichrist if you escape his wrath or tribulation he brings upon us. No true saint, living when the antichrist appears will escape the tribulation of Satan, lest they die of natural causes.

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Paul glories in our tribulation because he knows it builds faith and patience. That is bible laws, nature and principle; anything contrary is antichrist. That is why to say we escape tribulation is dangerous, escapest and contrary to all scripture that relates to us suffering for the kingdom.


5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Our suffering is a manifestation of God's righteous judgment on them whom trouble us, soon to be revealed. It is also proof one is saved. Ever read the parable or him whom planted on stony grounds?


6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

God will display his righteousness when he brings recompense for the tribulation we have suffered from our perpetrators.

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

OK, here is the context, get it. God will bring rest to us from tribulation or trouble from them that trouble us when Jesus is revealed at the end of the GT; in other words we our to endure tribulation until Jesus is revealed at His revelation, revelacion, apokolypcia, which everyone knows occurs at the end of the GT. Jesus' revelation brings His wrath, flaming fire, vengeance, and his mighty angels and it also brings our deliverence from them whom trouble or persecute us. How much clearer do you want Paul to make it for you? So there you have it; saints are to endure tribulation until the very end of the world, as seen in Revelation 2,12, 3:10, 14, 6, 7, 11, 19, 20 etc. Let's not forget all the last day references, or I Cor 15 either.

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

II Thes 2 and many other scriptures say that obeying the Gospel is also to take heed to the teachings, doctrines and precepts of the apostles, desciples, and Christ. That is why it is so dangerous to promote, propogate, and have pleasure in a false pre-tribulation rapture not found anywhere in scripture. Can you expound on just a few verses for us, as I have briefly done here. Do it with I Thes 4 and show us how you interpret by transliteration as pre-tribulation, escapest rapture there and an escape from tribulation for the true saints.

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

These wicked whom persecute us will suffer everlasting wrath and destruction from the presence of God; They shall not see the Glory of His power or eternal life, as the saints will, when he is glorified in them at his revelation. We the true believers will see God's glory. Part of persecuting the saints is to call doctrines that are clearly written error; because they believe not the testimony of the desciples, but have itching ears, and would rather here fairytales from Tim Lahaye, a devil in disguise, Darby, Scofield, etc. By doing so, they call evil what is good and righteous when measured with God's word. The speak evil of the ones whom are not in error as seen in II Peter 2
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

II Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-24-2009 at 02:11 PM..

 
Old 12-24-2009, 09:16 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,268,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You are just to rediculous...are you really attempting to say that these all have to do with rapture???and say that it will happen before the Tribulation????...you are leading people on a fruitless quest that is not part of the Gospel, but of Doctrines which we are instructed not to argue over, whoever is right or wrong is not going to change the fact that it will happen....
It's too ridiculous btw. There's a spell check feature that I highly recommend. It most certainly is part of scripture and I provided quite enough to show how it all connects. If we're not supposed to argue then why are you doing it??
 
Old 12-24-2009, 10:12 PM
 
392 posts, read 325,963 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
It's too ridiculous btw. There's a spell check feature that I highly recommend. It most certainly is part of scripture and I provided quite enough to show how it all connects. If we're not supposed to argue then why are you doing it??

Gideon said, we are still waiting for you to show us where you see the pretribulation coming in I Thes 4 and I Corinthians 15. The truth of the matter is you can't as it is not there. You keep insisting it is there, but yet you continue to fail miserably proving your posts. Further we would like for you to show us where in these books, chapters or anywhere do you see the church escaping tribulation. I have shown you they are not, but yet you still insist on contradicting scripture. I seems you are trusting of men's vain traditions. You are also trusting of men's foolish heresies, not good. BTW, as far as I can see, you have providing nothing but a bunch of verses, with no demonstration of how they prove the dogma you seem to trust in. Now I would be happy if you could at least transliterate, I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15. As I said before the last trumpet and only last trumpet mentioned in scripture is seen being sounded in Revelation 11 and 10 tells of its coming; this occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, which means that is when the saints are gathered together with Christ and are resurrected also to receive their rewards. Even though it is there in plain sight and English, you still can not see or understand it. They say the third time is a charm. This is the third time I have shown it to you.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-24-2009 at 10:22 PM..
 
Old 12-25-2009, 12:58 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,268,359 times
Reputation: 58115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said, we are still waiting for you to show us where you see the pretribulation coming in I Thes 4 and I Corinthians 15. The truth of the matter is you can't as it is not there. You keep insisting it is there, but yet you continue to fail miserably proving your posts. Further we would like for you to show us where in these books, chapters or anywhere do you see the church escaping tribulation. I have shown you they are not, but yet you still insist on contradicting scripture. I seems you are trusting of men's vain traditions. You are also trusting of men's foolish heresies, not good. BTW, as far as I can see, you have providing nothing but a bunch of verses, with no demonstration of how they prove the dogma you seem to trust in. Now I would be happy if you could at least transliterate, I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15. As I said before the last trumpet and only last trumpet mentioned in scripture is seen being sounded in Revelation 11 and 10 tells of its coming; this occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, which means that is when the saints are gathered together with Christ and are resurrected also to receive their rewards. Even though it is there in plain sight and English, you still can not see or understand it. They say the third time is a charm. This is the third time I have shown it to you.
Just so you'll quit wasting our time and yours, I'm letting you know that you are on ignore so I don't even see what your posts say. You are here simply to argue because we have all given scripture and showed you how the Rapture is scriptural. It is fruitless to keep going back and forth when you have no grounds whatsoever to be able to prove that there WON'T BE a Rapture. So stop all the nonsense because as soon as I post this I'm putting you right back on ignore.
 
Old 12-25-2009, 01:52 PM
 
392 posts, read 325,963 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Just so you'll quit wasting our time and yours, I'm letting you know that you are on ignore so I don't even see what your posts say. You are here simply to argue because we have all given scripture and showed you how the Rapture is scriptural. It is fruitless to keep going back and forth when you have no grounds whatsoever to be able to prove that there WON'T BE a Rapture. So stop all the nonsense because as soon as I post this I'm putting you right back on ignore.

Gideon said but they are in our control. The bible clearly explains what will happen in the end times, and it is our personal responsibility to adhere to the warnings and teachings in scripture. I have personally found debate to be and encouragement to me. It builds my knowlege bank of scriptures, immencely. It solidifies the word of God and its doctrines of truth. We learn what truth is and what error is by searching the scriptures. We are commanded to study in order to show ourselves approved. We are to study and strive with words as they bring profits to the kingdom of heaven, in subverting of the hearers to truth. At the same time we are commanded to shun vain babblings as they lead to more error or ungodliness. Preterism says the resurrection has already passed; we know the resurrection of the mortal into immortality has not occurred yet. Clearly, we see over and over again, it occurs at the end of the GT, and no time sooner. So it is very important to protect the word of God; as it tells us what truth is. One must just learn it and not ignore what is written. Debate is essential to the correction of error being broadcast about by those whom profess heresies.


[him]:

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

2Ti 2:14Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

More proof the resurrection occurs on the last day.


And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 7:37In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Jhn 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jhn 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

When is the last day? The last day comes into being when the last trumpet is sounded. Time ends on the last day. Christ takes possession of the earth on the last day. Satan is judged on the last day. The saints rise to receive their rewards on teh last day.

Times end prophecied in Revelation 10.

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the mystery? Paul tells us in I Corinthians 15; it is when we are immortalized into the likeness of Christ. It will remain a mystery until it happens. Why? When it occurs, that is when the mystery ends because we learn what it means to be immortal. We can only see what Paul has shown us now, but when it happens, that is when it becomes realize; so it is faith in action, now.

The last trumpet sounds and time ends. The saints all rise to receive their rewards; hence it is the time of the dead. Clearly and irrefutably the saints are resurrected at the end of teh GT, on the last day, after the last trump sounds.


The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


We see it in I Cor 15 also as in Revelation 11, the sounding of the last trumpet.


And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Cr 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, a


Now Ilene still has not shown us or expounded on the claim she has made; that being the pre-tribulation rapture is seen in I Thes 4 and I Cor 15. She also claims the these prove she will escape tribulation, since there is no mention of it. Wow. I quess if we use that kind of logic, we can come up with at least 50 second comings of Christ. She claims she has proven it with scripture, but everyone knows as well as I do, she just posts a bunch of verses and expects the reader to figure out what she is claiming, without expounding what she claims as truth. She fails to even expunge what post-tribulationists, as myself proclaim as truth.

All I did was asked her to show us where she saw here claims in I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15, and expound on it for us. She still fails and instead has put me on her ignore list. Hey she made the claim. As I said before, she will fail to do so because they, her claims of escaping tribulation, and a pre-tribulation rapture are not there or anywhere in scripture for that matter.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-25-2009 at 02:25 PM..
 
Old 12-26-2009, 10:06 PM
 
150 posts, read 178,410 times
Reputation: 79
The pre-tib "rapture" is not found anywhere in scripture.
 
Old 12-27-2009, 09:55 AM
 
392 posts, read 325,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
The pre-tib "rapture" is not found anywhere in scripture.
Gideon said,
Yes, I agree; all they present are misquoted, misinterpreted verses taken out of context. The also try to tie parbles of the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc with a pre-tribulation rapture, more misconceptions. THey have'nt a leg to stand on. The flood parable of teh flood is taken out of context, and Sodom and Gomorrah have nothing to do with the rapture. I Thes 4 says nothng of the timing nor that an escape from tribulation is to be expected. II Thes 1 tells us we will endure tribulation and trouble until Jesus is revealed in flaiming fire, taking vengeance on them that obey not the Gospel or doctrines of Scripture. We see we do not rest from them that trouble us until the end of the GT, below. We have all the evidences we need to know our faith is accurate; while they are in strong delusion, even now.



6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

The rest from the tribulation or from them that trouble us in not realized until Jesus is revealed in fire. There is nothing secret about that revelation. All will see it, even the wicked; yet, they can not show us one verse that dipicts a pre-trib second coming or gathering unto our Lord. What foolish confused people they are.


8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 10:47 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,268,359 times
Reputation: 58115
It's amazing to me the blindness when it comes to the Rapture. I've provided tons of scripture and PROVEN that the Rapture is scriptural, yet the comments are still the same. It must be mental blocks or simply not reading the material provided. More material to follow and hopefully it will be read and studied this time.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,741,817 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
It's amazing to me the blindness when it comes to the Rapture. I've provided tons of scripture and PROVEN that the Rapture is scriptural, yet the comments are still the same. It must be mental blocks or simply not reading the material provided. More material to follow and hopefully it will be read and studied this time.
We cannot see that which does not exist.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 11:05 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,268,359 times
Reputation: 58115
It does exist Kat.....it's right there in the Bible. I am attaching a link to a teaching that is scriptural and just plain common sense about the Rapture.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzsBC2yiqG8
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