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I uunderstand your confusion Meerkat, but the scriptures speaks louder than our minds, and it takes faith...faith in the word...not the ability to wrap our minds around it, but faith, unadulterated faith, without knowing, to believe. That is the message of the Gospel.
Thou (the Son) hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God (same Son) *****, even thy God (Jehovah), hath anointed thee (The Son) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The Son God and thy God.....Jesus and His God? The scripture separates two Gods here...aren't they one? God is annointed by God.
***** I think that where it says "therefore God, even thy God" is talking about God
Hebrews 1 starts off talking about what God was doing through Jesus and then switches to talking about Jesus then I believe switches again to talk about God
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds {{aion}} not the physical earth;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God {{Jesus}}, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God {{God}}, even thy God {{{God}}}, hath anointed thee {{Jesus}}with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord {{God}}, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he {{God}} at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Just a side question ----- is it saying that the enemies that are to be Jesus footstool, they are also ministering spirits?
Then let me BE clear . . . Christians are NOT defined by the man-made religious dogma and doctrines they profess. They are defined by their belief in Jesus as God incarnate . . . possessing God's TRUE NATURE and love for us ALL . . . and their desire to follow Him and His teachings to "love God and each other" in the hope and joy of the promised rebirth as Spirit and eternal life.
And . . . before you go quoting definitions again . . . God is not bound by human definitions and will make His own decisions about who is and is not Christian!!
Hebrews 1 starts off talking about what God was doing through Jesus and then switches to talking about Jesus then I believe switches again to talk about God
No it doesn't meerkat. Look again, at your exegesis even:
Quote:
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds {{aion}} not the physical earth;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God {{Jesus}}, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Quote:
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God {{God}}, even thy God {{{God}}}, hath anointed thee {{Jesus}}with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
See what you have done here above?...you have placed God and thy God as the same, when it is clear that they are not.
Quote:
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord {{God}}, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
No, the subject has not changed...Jesus is the subject, and Jehovah is the relative subject of the primary subject.
Quote:
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he {{God}} at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Yes God is He...but the subject is still Christ, who is Thou and Thee. The superiority of Christ to the angels appears in this that God never said to the angels what he has said to Christ. What has God said to the angels? He never said to them, as he said to Christ, Sit you at my right hand; but he has said of them here that they are ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation, the saints, those entered into the New Covenant.
Quote:
Just a side question ----- is it saying that the enemies that are to be Jesus footstool, they are also ministering spirits?
The ministering spirits are the angels, not the enemies. What the angels are as to their nature are they are spirits, without bodies or inclination to bodies, and yet they can assume bodies, and appear in them, when God pleases. They are spirits, incorporeal, intelligent, active, substances and they excel in wisdom and strength.
Psalm 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Stay busy in the Word!
Last edited by sciotamicks; 12-10-2009 at 10:43 PM..
Reason: spelling again :(
It gets too confusing thinking that Jehovah is Jesus when you have God saying through Moses
Deu 18:15 The LORD {Jehovah} thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
This is referring to Jesus is it not? To me that would not make sense.
Also these
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD {{Jehovah}} , and against his anointed {{Jesus}}, saying,
........
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD {{Jehovah}}}hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
The Lord said to my Lord: [Psalm 110:1] King David calling Jesus Lord.
To me it is a contradiction to say that Jesus is Jehovah who prophecied that he would annoint and appoint Jesus. It makes no sense.
On the side question yes I do see that it is the angels (messengers) that are the ministering spirits.
I understand you see some contradictions, but you also see many that say otherwise. We have to rightly divide the word, and see if it all weighs out. That is what we are doing here. I believe in the Trinity, so therefore that is what I present the best that I can, and hope I don't get too emotionally unstrung as Paul did on many occasions with the Jerusalem council
The fact is meerkat, Christ was a man in the flesh, but it is also obvious of His deity, and the conception of Him was divine, from God, the Holy Spirit. We must try our best and be careful to not put God in a place inside our minds or a box, for lack of a better phrase, but let Him envelop us with His presence and parousia , which is Christ in us. We must understand that the very core of our belief system is faith, and that is the faith of something unseen. None of us have ever met Christ in the person, when He was a man, but we believe in Him, right?
That is the message of the gospel. Believing in Him no matter what we understand or misunderstand, grasp or cannot grasp. The mystery will never be revealed to us if we continue to try and wrap Him into our minds, but if we just let go, surrender, and let Him come into us, and let him chaste our spirit, the mystery will begin to unfold, on His time mind you, not ours. I can say this from first hand experience.
When I accepted Christ as my Savior and God, everything and more to come, began to fall into place, and my understanding of Him, increased.
The Lord said to my Lord: [Psalm 110:1] King David calling Jesus Lord.
Mark 12:35-37
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD {Johovah} said unto my Lord {Adoni} , Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
While physically Jesus is King David's son, however spiritually in the new creation Jesus is Lord of Lords, King of kings.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
I understand you see some contradictions, but you also see many that say otherwise. We have to rightly divide the word, and see if it all weighs out. That is what we are doing here. I believe in the Trinity, so therefore that is what I present the best that I can, and hope I don't get too emotionally unstrung as Paul did on many occasions with the Jerusalem council
The fact is meerkat, Christ was a man in the flesh, but it is also obvious of His deity, and the conception of Him was divine, from God, the Holy Spirit. We must try our best and be careful to not put God in a place inside our minds or a box, for lack of a better phrase, but let Him envelop us with His presence and parousia , which is Christ in us. We must understand that the very core of our belief system is faith, and that is the faith of something unseen. None of us have ever met Christ in the person, when He was a man, but we believe in Him, right?
That is the message of the gospel. Believing in Him no matter what we understand or misunderstand, grasp or cannot grasp. The mystery will never be revealed to us if we continue to try and wrap Him into our minds, but if we just let go, surrender, and let Him come into us, and let him chaste our spirit, the mystery will begin to unfold, on His time mind you, not ours. I can say this from first hand experience.
When I accepted Christ as my Savior and God, everything and more to come, began to fall into place, and my understanding of Him, increased.
Such will it be with you.
Much love and Stay busy in the Word!
Sciotamicks,
I do have absolute faith in God and accept Jesus as Lord and master and believe that he is the resurrection and the life, and yes I agree with you that we need to be led by the Spirit, it seems in some things I have been led in a different direction at this stage than you but in some things the same - I am leaning more towards a preterist understanding of the scriptures.
For those that don't believe that Christ is part of the Triune Godhead...please take part. I will ask one question for those that adhere to this doctrine.
What did Thomas call Christ?
Had you not used an unscriptural term "Triune Godhead" which finds no place in God's divine revelation, I could participate. But since it is impossible to believe that Christ is part of something nowhere stated in the bible, it is a moot point.
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, which is Christ in us. We must understand that the very core of our belief system is faith, and that is the faith of something unseen. None of us have ever met Christ in the person, when He was a man, but we believe in Him, right?
