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Old 12-13-2009, 10:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Enoch, clearly does not demonstrate nor point to a pre-tribulation rapture. Nor can you use the OT for a means of reference, because of dispensationalism. The OT is only suppose to be for Israel as is Mathew 24, Mark 13 etc; this is according to dispensationalism and pre-tribulationalism. So sorry to say, guys you make absolutely no sense at all. Besides this was never cananized nor can it be refered to as being part of scripture or part of the HOLY Bible; this really demonstrates the validity of your claims.. You must be Roman Catholic. You have failed with all your attempts, most recently with the parble of the ten virgins. NOW you are trying to bring something in that is not even part of The Holy scriptures.
1 Enoch is and always has been part of the "canon" of the Ethiopian coptic Church from the beginning of the Church there. The Ethiopian Jews who converted to Christ in the beginning of the Church age had Enoch, as well as other ancient books, just as the early NT Church did, and they never followed Rome, who banned Enoch almost 400 years after the Church was begun and after many of the early Christian writers wrote that Enoch was Scripture.

Since the author of Hebrews said that you cannot be a teacher in the Church of Jesus Christ if you are ignorant of the Oracles committed to the Jews -as the namesake people of the New Man name- then one who wishes to be a teacher in the Church must learn the message/doctrine of Christ in the Living Oracles.
Even Paul said that the Jews/Israel have the advantage in the Church of Christ because the Oracles were committed to them, which teach us about the Person and work of Christ and serve as a tutor/schoolmaster to bring us to the end goal, of Christ.


Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
And the passage from Enoch which I quoted from, above, in 1 Enoch chapter 50 does teach the pre-trib rapture, the repentance and salvation in the name of the Son of Man of the elect who were not raptured, and of the judgment and damnation of the sinners who do not repent in that day in which evil is treasured up against the unrepent wicked.

The rapture is taught in the OT, by types, in the oracles, and Paul could not legally teach it if it had not been, because Jesus Christ is the last Word, and last prophet of revelation, and no one can bring in any new thing after Jesus, who Himself fulfills all that is written.
Even Revelation is a clarifying and fulfillment of what Enoch was shown and wrote about, first.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
1 Enoch is and always has been part of the "canon" of the Ethiopian coptic Church from the beginning of the Church there. The Ethiopian Jews who converted to Christ in the beginning of the Church age had Enoch, as well as other ancient books, just as the early NT Church did, and they never followed Rome, who banned Enoch almost 400 years after the Church was begun and after many of the early Christian writers wrote that Enoch was Scripture.

Since the author of Hebrews said that you cannot be a teacher in the Church of Jesus Christ if you are ignorant of the Oracles committed to the Jews -as the namesake people of the New Man name- then one who wishes to be a teacher in the Church must learn the message/doctrine of Christ in the Living Oracles.
Even Paul said that the Jews/Israel have the advantage in the Church of Christ because the Oracles were committed to them, which teach us about the Person and work of Christ and serve as a tutor/schoolmaster to bring us to the end goal, of Christ.


Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
And the passage from Enoch which I quoted from, above, in 1 Enoch chapter 50 does teach the pre-trib rapture, the repentance and salvation in the name of the Son of Man of the elect who were not raptured, and of the judgment and damnation of the sinners who do not repent in that day in which evil is treasured up against the unrepent wicked.

The rapture is taught in the OT, by types, in the oracles, and Paul could not legally teach it if it had not been, because Jesus Christ is the last Word, and last prophet of revelation, and no one can bring in any new thing after Jesus, who Himself fulfills all that is written.
Even Revelation is a clarifying and fulfillment of what Enoch was shown and wrote about, first.
YSM, I do not think Gideon is denying the rapture just the pre-trib rapture. Furthermore, Paul was taught by Christ Himself and said that the rapture was a mystery - so it was not taught in the OT. The rapture is the resurrection for those who are alive when Christ returns - Enoch was taken to heaven as was Elijah but they were not raptured/resurrected.

Also, Enoch ch.1, and 50 is about the second coming. All the wicked are not destroyed and removed at the begining of the tribulation but at the end of it. Paul even uses a phrase when he refers to the wrath being stored up for that Day. Rom.2:5.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
YSM, I do not think Gideon is denying the rapture just the pre-trib rapture. Furthermore, Paul was taught by Christ Himself and said that the rapture was a mystery - so it was not taught in the OT. The rapture is the resurrection for those who are alive when Christ returns - Enoch was taken to heaven as was Elijah but they were not raptured/resurrected.

Also, Enoch ch.1, and 50 is about the second coming. All the wicked are not destroyed and removed at the begining of the tribulation but at the end of it. Paul even uses a phrase when he refers to the wrath being stored up for that Day. Rom.2:5.
Gideon said, precisely Shiloh!!!
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:38 AM
 
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Gideon said,

Now I will continue to debunk the pre-tribulation rapture with the rest of this study, the study of The Parable of the Ten Virgins. So far we have demonstrated with the meanings of the terminologies that the five foolish virgins are not Christians Left Behind in some imaginary pre-tribulation rapture, not-chaste as they put it. Rather the foolish virgins are unsaved virgins, having a pretense of salvation, in that they thought they would enter the wedding at the end of the GT, or after the night passed. This tells us they thought they were part of the kingdom of God, but to their surprise had a rude awakening when the bridegroom arrived. Further, the context of the entire chapter and all three parables is a demonstration of the separation of the sheep’s from the goats when the Day of the Lord occurs. The goats are cast into hell and the sheep are allowed to enter the kingdom on earth, with Christ during the Millennium reign, and forevermore.
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Further, we have concluded, the pre-tribulation camps have misconstrued the meanings of the words know, and foolish, there by coming up with the fallacy of pre-tribulationism and dispensationalism. Many will continue to deny this but when we conduct independent studies, the findings are always conclusive and the same, there is no pre-tribulation rapture, it is fallacy, and false doctrine created by men whom were obviously led by Satan. Finally, it does not matter what parable we look at concerning the kingdom and end of the world, the Parable of Noah, The Parable of the Ten Virgins, The Parable of the Wheat and Tares, The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Servants, The Parable of the Sowers, The Parable of the Fig Tree, The Parable of Sheep and Goats, etc etc.; we must conclude the same for all, there is a kingdom in us that becomes immortal when Christ returns at the end of the age. There will be a seperation of the sheep and the Goats. The goats are cast into hell while the sheep join Christ in His reign on earth. It is that simple, Elementary to the saints of the most high.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Enoch, clearly does not demonstrate nor point to a pre-tribulation rapture. Nor can you use the OT for a means of reference, because of dispensationalism. The OT is only suppose to be for Israel as is Mathew 24, Mark 13 etc; this is according to dispensationalism and pre-tribulationalism. So sorry to say, guys you make absolutely no sense at all. Besides this was never cananized nor can it be refered to as being part of scripture or part of the HOLY Bible; this really demonstrates the validity of your claims.. You must be confused. You have failed with all your attempts, most recently with the parble of the ten virgins. NOW we see one trying to bring something in that is not even part of The Holy scriptures.
I can understand why someone would hold to the Book of Enoch and that is because it seemingly mirrors the words of Christ and seemingly being referenced from the book of Jude, but as it was "brought" into the "Bible" by over enthusiastic believers at one time, eventually, the words of Christ went against the words of Enoch, and it was discerned to be a forgery and it was dropped.

As it is, no one needs the Book of Enoch to see what is hidden about how the Kingdom of God isgoing to be made up as: three harvests.

Now, before we all get uppity about what those three harvests are, remember there was a resurrection of OT saints when Christ arose, but Christ told His followers that those raptured will be sitting down with the Old Testament saints in having this meal so that wasn't the resurrection pertaining to the first harvest when Jesus rose from the dead.

Now I ask Gideon... what will the raptured saints body will be like as in the first harvest... even though we disagree as to when that is: what is the raptured body will be like?

Also: there is a problem with the timeline that you have continued to ignore.

If Christ returned with the saints and the first resurrection occurred after the devil was defeated and put into the pit: how can that be? How can those coming out of the great tribulation be resurrected if they were the saints that came back with Jesus?

How can they be raptured at the end of the great tribulation to meet the Lord in the air and turn around and come to earth again only to be part of the first resurrection after the devil is defeated and placed into the pit?

How or why be raptured... inherit the incorruptible body.... and yet have to be resurrected again after the devil has been defeated and cast into the pit?

Please address how that can be, Gideon, unless a pre tribulational rapture event of saints found ready and abiding in Him to come back with Jesus for those that were not reaqdy and left behind to come out of the great tribulation and be resurrected after the devil is defeated and thrown in the pit?

Doesn't the rapture event precludes the great tribulation then? Is that not when the first harvest is that comes with a meal... and then the second one at the end of the great tribulation which would be for those coming out of the great tribulation as their first resurrection and the third harvest occuring at some unknown time after the peaceful 1000 year reign of Christ when the devil is defeated for the last time and thrown into the lake of fire.

So that is the conundrum of your presentation, Gideon. How can the raptured saints that meet the Lord in the air and come back with Him be resurrected again after the devil has been defeated and placed into the pit for the 1000 years?
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
YSM, I do not think Gideon is denying the rapture just the pre-trib rapture. Furthermore, Paul was taught by Christ Himself and said that the rapture was a mystery - so it was not taught in the OT. The rapture is the resurrection for those who are alive when Christ returns - Enoch was taken to heaven as was Elijah but they were not raptured/resurrected.

Also, Enoch ch.1, and 50 is about the second coming. All the wicked are not destroyed and removed at the begining of the tribulation but at the end of it. Paul even uses a phrase when he refers to the wrath being stored up for that Day. Rom.2:5.
Enoch never died, but was translated to the body of immortality made for the glory, to serve as the legal firstborn son of the Living Spirit/Christ, [before Christ was come in flesh] to fulfill the biblical and earthly law of firstborn seed, which was established from the beginning.
As the firstborn seed of Christ, who was to come in flesh and is come in flesh, Enoch is "raised in the name of the dead husband of the barren widow". That is a study for the serious seeker of truth to discover in the written Word of God, as one of the treasures hidden there for those who truly seek. Enoch has nothing to wait for, and is in his immortal "garment made for glory", and with the Watchers, in Zion above, who intercede for men's souls from there [As Enoch revealed].


Paul was given "revelations" on what was already written, which any born again in Christ Believer who seeks to understand can also have, by the Holy Spirit giving understanding to them from what is written.
Paul had personal instructions on how and when and where he was to preach the same Gospel of Christ as the twelve Apostles of Christ who were with Christ from the beginning preached; and as the other 69 disciples of Christ taught and preached; and as all disciples of Christ must have, to live in obedience and relationship with Christ, doing His will, in this Church age.

As to the teaching of Christ, Paul was taught that by those who took him in and companioned with him, like Barnabas, who was one of the seventy disciples of Christ, and by Luke, who was also close to family of Joseph and Mary, and who knew all things about Christ from the beginning, and by Silas, another of those who were of the apostles, but not of the twelve, and by Mark, nephew of Barnabas and son of Mary, whose house was used for large gatherings of the disciples and in whose house the last Passover supper with Christ in flesh was held, according to traditions of the Church.

1 Enoch from chapter 1 to the end focuses on the coming time of the tribulation on earth, which is the time of the second consummation of sin on earth, just as the flood of Noah was the first consummation of sin on earth. Only at the end of that tribulation on earth are all the wicked removed, as Jesus taught, just like in the flood.
Enoch is the first to teach that the righteous who choose to live the "elect" life will be translated to glory before the time of the great tribulation commences, and that those left who repent because they see and then understand will be saved [but not be translated to the glory] in the name of the Son of Man, who is seen in Enoch as God the Creator and the Word/Oath of God, and who is hidden in God the Great Glory, and who was to come in flesh, as Enoch saw Him and wrote of Him as, in 1 Enoch.

When Paul wrote of understanding the mystery of the rapture he served as a scribe of the writings which he was given revelations of understanding in, and could not, legally, write any new doctrine that was not already written, for there is no word, after Jesus, to the world. When Jesus gave the revelation of His coming to John, He made what Enoch had already written clear, and to try to understand Revelation without Enoch is futile, and they complement one another as the first revelation of Christ in mystery to the last revelation of Christ revealed.

Now the word "rapture" is not what the gathering of the "perfected" sons of God to Him -before the tribulation can commence on earth- to celebrate their consecration as priests in His name, is all about, which is taught in the living oracles committed only to the namesake people of the New Man name, through Moses, and Paul was given understanding about that gathering to Him which is to come, and Paul also had Enoch to read and understand, and often wrote of Jesus Christ as He is revealed only in Enoch.

The gathering to Himself is about the harvest of the sons of God from earth, who are the crop of the firstfruit harvested and taken to the "storehouse" in heaven, from whence the "Seed" came and was "planted/died" for the harvest of souls from earth to be got, for the glory to indwell.
The Word of God is rich indeed for instructions to the student/disciple of Chrsit who seeks to understand what the firstfruits Gatherinig to Christ is all about, and when it comes, and why it comes, and what the "gathered to Christ" sons of God do, when they are gathered to Him.

All these things are taught in the Living Oracles, which serve as the Instructor on all things pertaining to the Person and work of Christ.

Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 12-14-2009 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:34 AM
 
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I can understand why someone would hold to the Book of Enoch and that is because it seemingly mirrors the words of Christ and seemingly being referenced from the book of Jude, but as it was "brought" into the "Bible" by over enthusiastic believers at one time, eventually, the words of Christ went against the words of Enoch, and it was discerned to be a forgery and it was dropped.
1 Enoch was never considered forgery, and "Bible" means only "a collection of books". Enoch was one of the books which Paul had and read and valued, and which was held as sacred writing by the family of Joseph and Mary, as their sons both quoted from it in Jude and James, just as Jesus also quoted from it in His Gospel teachings.
The Ethiopian Christian Churches never, ever, banned Enoch from their "collection of books =Bible". It has always remained in their "canon=list" of writings held to be sacred.

Bible Study: Which Bible? Whose Canon?
Quote:
... The smallest Bible is claimed by the Samaritans, who recognize only the first five books of the Bible...
The largest Bible is that of the Ethiopian Orthodox church, which has 81 books
"The Ethiopian Orthodox ...Old Testament canon includes the books of the Hebrew Bible, all of the Apocrypha, and "Jubilees, 1 Enoch..."
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
1 Enoch was never considered forgery, and "Bible" means only "a collection of books". Enoch was one of the books which Paul had and read and valued, and which was held as sacred writing by the family of Joseph and Mary, as their sons both quoted from it in Jude and James, just as Jesus also quoted from it in His Gospel teachings.
The Ethiopian Christian Churches never, ever, banned Enoch from their "collection of books =Bible". It has always remained in their "canon=list" of writings held to be sacred.

Bible Study: Which Bible? Whose Canon?
"The Ethiopian Orthodox ...Old Testament canon includes the books of the Hebrew Bible, all of the Apocrypha, and "Jubilees, 1 Enoch..."
Let's be clear:

There is no evidence of Paul having that book, reading it, and valuing it. These so called sacred writings as being valued by Joeph and Mary and their sons are not referenced in the accepted Bible that we have. Jesus being quoted does not negate the obviousness that Jesus own words spoke against it.

The Book of Enoch is a lie as it was forged by copying Jesus words to trick believers into thinking it to be legit when it fails to meet the whole of scriptures to be accepted.

There can be no lie of the truth.

There was no need for the collection of books until Israel became a nation by which Moses began the writings for the roots of the Israelites. From there, the scribes were assigned the job of preserving the scriptures and keeping them up as using them would cause wear over time.

Jesus own words as well as the accepted Bible testifies to the falsehood of the Book of Enoch.

No man has ascended into heaven yet. When God took Enoch, it was assumed he was taken to Heaven, but scriptures testifies otherwise.

John 3: 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John 10: 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

So when God took Enoch, it was not to heaven.

Another thing is that angels cannot marry nor being given in marriage for God joins man and woman as one: the sons of God were not angels but the lineage of which is the pride and root of Israel:

Luke 3:38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

It should be obvious whenever the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord and when Satan visited this annual event, God referred to Job during this presentation because Job was one of them.

There was this godly lineage of Seth that mingled with the daughters of men as there were other offsprings besides Cain and Seth.

If God would not join angels with man, then He certainly would not join fallen angels with man.

The fact that the Book of Enoch is depicting these offsprings as being evil spirits as the result of swuch a union as the giants of the earth should have given you pause.

The Book of Enoch declares different realms of heavens and has some even being tormented there, but yet no man has ascended to heaven yet so how could this "Enoch" see such a thing?

AND supposedly, he saw a place where some of creation was being held in prison for not appearing when God spoke it to be. Now talk about a lie!!! How can anyone trust in God's word if what He spoke, it will not fulfill?

Isaiah 55: 10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Remember Dante's Inferno with the many different levels of hell? I have to doubt the legitimacy of the Book of Enoch as it goes against God's word as poetic licensing is circumspect.

1 John 2:21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1 John 2:But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So if there was a real Book of Enoch which was written by Enoch as inspired by the Holy Spirit, then this Book of Enoch that you are quoting is a forgery for no lie can be of the truth.

Writers inspired by the Holy Spirit do not need a written reference to have a writing of the scriptures to be based on because Moses didn't have any as he was the one that started the collection of such writings since the nation of Israel came into being that necessitated it by the Lord. So when writers referred to Enoch, it doesn't mean that there was a Book of Enoch for no one could nor would they keep up a book after the Flood in failing the necessity for having such a book. Noah was referred to as a preacher of righteousness so where are his writings? Nowhere in sight, and yet he survived the Flood.. would be compelled to write books and give accounts so that his family and the mankind that follows would not make the same mistake as the family did before, but again, he did not. So if the Book of Enoch survived the Flood, then surely there would be many books by the author of Noah having far more dominancy and importance since Noah would be a surviving witness after the Flood to see the prophetic warning fulfilled.

Scriptures in the NT spoke of Jewish fables that turn from the truth of God's words, and if the Book of Enoch are not one of them, then what is?

And as much as you believed the propaganda that the Book of Enoch was valued by Paul, Mary and Joseph, and quoted by sons and Jesus, then why is it that the Jewish authority do not acknowldge them as scriptures?

The obvious conclusion is... if the Book of Enoch is not a forgery, then certainly the Jewish fable that turns away from the truth of God's words.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
The Parable of the Ten Virgins Clearly Proves a Post-Tribulation Return of Christ and Rapture of the Church
True, as long as you understand "church" as the Circumcision believers under Peter, James and John. They will not be raptured out of tribulation.

Believers of the nations do not go through the great tribulation since it only deals with the sons of Jacob also called "Jacob's Trouble."
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:43 PM
 
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Enow has asked,Now I ask Gideon... what will the raptured saints body will be like as in the first harvest... even though we disagree as to when that is: what is the raptured body will be like?
Quote:

Also: there is a problem with the timeline that you have continued to ignore.

If Christ returned with the saints and the first resurrection occurred after the devil was defeated and put into the pit: how can that be? How can those coming out of the great tribulation be resurrected if they were the saints that came back with Jesus?

How can they be raptured at the end of the great tribulation to meet the Lord in the air and turn around and come to earth again only to be part of the first resurrection after the devil is defeated and placed into the pit?

How or why be raptured... inherit the incorruptible body.... and yet have to be resurrected again after the devil has been defeated and cast into the pit?

Please address how that can be, Gideon, unless a pre tribulational rapture event of saints found ready and abiding in Him to come back with Jesus for those that were not reaqdy and left behind to come out of the great tribulation and be resurrected after the devil is defeated and thrown in the pit?

Doesn't the rapture event precludes the great tribulation then? Is that not when the first harvest is that comes with a meal... and then the second one at the end of the great tribulation which would be for those coming out of the great tribulation as their first resurrection and the third harvest occuring at some unknown time after the peaceful 1000 year reign of Christ when the devil is defeated for the last time and thrown into the lake of fire.

So that is the conundrum of your presentation, Gideon. How can the raptured saints that meet the Lord in the air and come back with Him be resurrected again after the devil has been defeated and placed into the pit for the 1000 years?
Gideon said, Enow has asked some very good questions and I am glad he has done so. The timeline you continue to ignore is crucial to the post-tribulation rapture as recorded in scripture. For such you cannot logically see the sequence of events as they occur. The answers to your questions are simple, logical, and recorded in Scripture. To answer your first question we look at the Bible and its interpretive terminologies. Enow asks, How can the tribulation saints be raptured if they are returning with Christ after Satan is defeated at the end of the Great Tribulation? How can the saints of the Great Tribulation be resurrected if they are the ones coming back with Christ? To answer your questions we must LQQK at scripture. First of all you must realize there are two groups of saints during the GT, the dead in Christ, and those that are living on earth still. Paul makes that very clear in I Thes 4: 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The dead in Christ are most definitely resurrected on the last day, when the tribulation ends, at the last trumpet. There are many verses in scripture to prove that but I will only provide one. You will have to search for the others yourself; other are Revelation 10 (the last trumpet) and Revelation 11 when it sounds, I Corintians 15 etc, I have posted many before. Read them; the dead rise in order to receive their rewards and to be able to enter the immortal kingdom, which is now on earth with Christ's Return. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus will raise no one up until the last day. I know some saints; most likely of His age, and not necessarily OT saints, rose when he died to demonstrate the power of His resurrection, but this was not a full blown resurrection. Nor is it considered the first resurrection. The first resurrection, and only first resurrection recorded in scripture occurs on the last day, when the last trumpet sounds at the end of the Great Tribulation. Those saints that rose in Jesus' time lived again for a short period and died. Their bodies were not immortalized yet; that occurs on the last day, when all that the Father has given Jesus will he rise up on the last day. Only then will we be prepared to enter the eternal kingdom, with whose king on earth shall be Christ. They, the ones that rose with Jesus will raise again to enter the kingdom when it arrives as all saints will from Adam to the last martyr of the Great Tribulation will rise.. The living are change into immortality on the last day and when the last trumpet sounds. We see the trumpet in I Thes 4 also; plus we see God brings the dead back with him. This is even more proof that JESUS is God. Will God bring with Him, 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Who is God, Jesus bringing with him, the dead whom the context of the chapter is about; notice it says nothing of the living coming with him. The living are on earth and they meet Jesus and the dead in the air.

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Then Enow asks: How can they be ruptured at the end of the great tribulation to meet the Lord in the air and turn around and come to earth again only to be part of the first resurrection after the devil is defeated and placed into the pit?

Gideon said, very, very easily; you must understand the context and terminology of I Thes 4 to answer that question. Now take note, I am not adding to what is there written as pre-tribualationism does. Here it is. If you want other questions answered they will have to be done on another thread. Transliterating scripture is very time consuming and takes much effort and space. But here is the answer to your last question. BTW, I have answered it in previous posts. The saints are raptured at the end of the tribulation in order to meet the Lord at His descent. Nowhere in scripture do we see that Christ is ascending at His second coming; we only see a descent everywhere. In this reference we see a specific descent with a meeting or apantesis or meeting with the saints in the air. As I said before the apentesis is very important, and to understand what this terminology means is very important also; for the discovery or transliteration of its meaning brings the entire passage to life and to a conclusion. Simply stated without this word being interpreted we are left in the dark, as pre-tribulationism is left guessing and distorting the entire chapter. Without out this word we can not understand that the descent continues;though the logic is it should. The word proves the descent continues; hence it must be the post-tribulation return we see everywhere else in scripture. Apantēsis, or during the time of Christ was a meeting with a dignitary as he made his way into a town. The apantesis was used in Hellenistic times; it involved the towns folks or city folks going out of the town to the out-skirts to meet the dignatary whom they were expecting to arrive; they would turn around after they met him out of town and escort him back in. This word depicts Christ descending, while the saints will either rise from the dead; all that the God hath given Jesus will rise to immortality to enter the immortal kingdom. The living and remaining tribulation saints will also apantesis the Lord. Both will apantesis Jesus in order to escort him down in the remaining part of His descent. That is precisely what is being depicted, and worded in this passage.

Pre-tribulationism has perverted and misconstrued this passage, grossly. They tell people this passage proves Jesus is going to fly them away; we see Jesus is not going to fly anywhere, but rather he is descending. Secondly they also claim this passage proves a pre-tribulation rapture. Finally, they tell you in so many words, that you must be an annointed one, being able to understand their misconceptioin of dispensationalism; which you don't because it is not in scripture. So they infer you must know how God seperates Israel and the church to udnerstand; another lie. Can someone, anyone, please tell me where in the world do you or they see anything about the timing of this event in this chapter or passage of I Thes 4? We certainly see there is an insinuation that it occurs at the end of the tribulation, as Jesus descends to the earth, after an epenthesis with his saints. This we know occurs at the end of the GT. The context of the passage is the living saints of The Church of Thessalonica were concerned for their dead loved ones being left when Jesus returned. There is no concern or even a question as to when it was going to occur; so how do they, pretribbers conclude it occurs before the pre-tribulation here in this passage? There is no such logic or reasoning here. Simply answered, they have created a wishful thinking fairytale, the Cinderella of Fudamentalism, with no support or basis for it in scripture. Darby has created Paradosis, wealth, and tradition for our independent Fundamental Churches. THey uses this doctrine abusively.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-14-2009 at 08:22 PM..
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