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Old 12-17-2009, 03:22 PM
 
Location: midwest
507 posts, read 644,244 times
Reputation: 126
wow - there are some pretty wordy posts on here. Is it really so complicated that it takes this many characters to explain? What are we up to.... a few thousand? A million? There's at least 50 posts so far. Crazy. Take the parable for what it is.

The parable was meant to be a warning to believers. It's a parallel to a jewish wedding. (Read up on how weddings are performed for further clarity about the customs.) Regardless, in the parable you can see that being prepared is key. How do you be prepared? Model the bridesmaids who refuse to be caught off guard for the wedding....

If you don't think this applies to us all here and now, waiting on Christ to return? Prove why.
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:29 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 904,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
.
Gideon said no it seems all references seem to show otherwise. If you look at Revelation 6 and 20 it depicts a resurrection of saints after the sixth seal is open. The great men of the earth are still crying to the mountains fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne. Then later on in the end of the sixth seal we see the saints surrounding the throne of him who has come to judge and make war, Christ. So though the saints are resurrected and stand round about the enormous heavenly throne, the judgment on earth is not complete. In revelation 20 the saints are already resurrected, even before Satan is thrown in the pit. That is how I see it. They are too many references in scripture to not conclude this. But even if they are resurrected after Satan is thrown in the pit, it makes no difference as all these events occur on the last day of Satan's rule on earth. Christ takes over the kingdom. There cannot be two first resurrections; even the thought of it sounds illogical.
Oh, I agree that it is illogical, but then, you and I both know that we can only have wisdom from the Lord in understanding His words.

I understand and agree with you fully that the term "first resurrection" implies that there was none before that, but then... there was.

Matthew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So here be the Old Testament saints.

This can't be the gathering where He told His disciples about those not found being ready and thrust out of the Kingdom of God because there has to be some new testament sainst sitting down with them that were not led astray by false prophets.

So how can that be considered the first resurrection in Revelation? Is it referring to that time as the saints coming out of the great tribulation as that is teh first resurrection and the rest of the dead as in reference to the first resurrection.. would occur later? I would say yes. Why?

John 6: 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Was it the Old Testament saints that were raised in their last day?

What is the last day of those coming out of the milleniel reign will be?

We see the term "first resurrection" and believe it to be as the first resurrection since Christ, but there were others that had arisen after his resurrection.

Could this be the first resurrection as in the first fruits, thus pointing to your view of a post harvest of all believers in Christ?

But wait. Jesus said He will lose nothing so how can false prophets lead any astray? How can they be thrust out of the kingdom of God if they were never in it?

This goes to judgment on the House of God first as the sitting down with the OT saints at a meal points to a pre tribulational rapture event.

That is the marriage supper as the cost for not being ready and found abiding in Him is to be destroyed from being that vessel unto honour to a vessel unto dishonour in God's House.

I do not see the seperating of such vessels at any time other than before the great tribulation.

That is why I see Jesus coming back with the firstfruits of the resurrection to meet those left behind with new believers at His coming.

Then you have the harvest at the end of the milleniel reign of Christ after Jesus defeats the devil for the last time.

I know I cannot show you what the Lord has shown me because it will take the Lord to show you as He did for me.

In any event, the call is to be ready and be found abiding in Him. may we look to the author and finsiher of our faith to present us as the chaste bride of Christ as a vessel unto honour in God's House for He is able.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
920 posts, read 535,515 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaraZoteBuccaneer View Post
wow - there are some pretty wordy posts on here. Is it really so complicated that it takes this many characters to explain? What are we up to.... a few thousand? A million? There's at least 50 posts so far. Crazy. Take the parable for what it is.

The parable was meant to be a warning to believers. It's a parallel to a jewish wedding. (Read up on how weddings are performed for further clarity about the customs.) Regardless, in the parable you can see that being prepared is key. How do you be prepared? Model the bridesmaids who refuse to be caught off guard for the wedding....

If you don't think this applies to us all here and now, waiting on Christ to return? Prove why.
Your application of that parable is acceptable to you, then that is good.

However, to others the same parable may have other applications.

The mysteries of God are such that for many, they must be sought out in a process that will lead to understanding.

Blessings, AJ
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:08 AM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 2,440,035 times
Reputation: 544
[quote=ZaraZoteBuccaneer;12070944]wow - there are some pretty wordy posts on here. Is it really so complicated that it takes this many characters to explain? What are we up to.... a few thousand? A million? There's at least 50 posts so far. Crazy. Take the parable for what it is.

The parable was meant to be a warning to believers. It's a parallel to a jewish wedding. (Read up on how weddings are performed for further clarity about the customs.) Regardless, in the parable you can see that being prepared is key. How do you be prepared? Model the bridesmaids who refuse to be caught off guard for the wedding....

If you don't think this applies to us all here and now, waiting on Christ to return? Prove why.[/quoteht]

I really like your post and agree with you. I have never been able to figure out why some christians make everything in the Bible so complicated. You are right, this parable is about being ready and not being caught off guard.

I don't beleive it has anything to do with post tribulation theory but I won't go into that right now since there is another thread that pretty much exhausted the subject.

Thanks for sharing.

Last edited by Raelyn28; 12-18-2009 at 03:32 AM..
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 2,440,035 times
Reputation: 544
In II Timothy 2:14-20 we are told not to argue as Christians. This pre-trib vs post-trib thread is just another repeat of Ilenes thread entitled "What to do when the rapture takes place".

The subject has pretty much been re-hashed several times in various lengthy posts. I believe that there is a lot of repeat posts here that have already been discussed. Anyway my response to this thread is Read the scripture that I have provided and then pray about continuing with this Rapture discussion and debate.

Thanks
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:28 AM
 
392 posts, read 307,936 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaraZoteBuccaneer View Post
wow - there are some pretty wordy posts on here. Is it really so complicated that it takes this many characters to explain? What are we up to.... a few thousand? A million? There's at least 50 posts so far. Crazy. Take the parable for what it is.

The parable was meant to be a warning to believers. It's a parallel to a jewish wedding. (Read up on how weddings are performed for further clarity about the customs.) Regardless, in the parable you can see that being prepared is key. How do you be prepared? Model the bridesmaids who refuse to be caught off guard for the wedding....

If you don't think this applies to us all here and now, waiting on Christ to return? Prove why.
Gideon said,
The parable represents two classes of people; we see in the transliteration of the wording this is very conclusive. The two classes include the saved, or those whom attend the wedding at the close of the age, and the unsaved, those whom can not attend the wedding of the Lamb, bridegroom, and are locked out; these are those whom Jesus knew not and shall be cast into hell. We see that in the entire context of all the parables in Chapter twenty five. Context is king. Church tradition has corrupted the context and attempted to seperate it from what is actually being proclaimed here. Hence we must be prepared to endure the night, as the bridegroom will not come as early as the foolish virgins think so.

Quite obviously, you have not read any of the transliteration I have provided. I beleive this is enough to prove what was just stated above.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-18-2009 at 07:58 AM..
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:39 AM
 
392 posts, read 307,936 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Oh, I agree that it is illogical, but then, you and I both know that we can only have wisdom from the Lord in understanding His words.

I understand and agree with you fully that the term "first resurrection" implies that there was none before that, but then... there was.

Matthew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So here be the Old Testament saints.

This can't be the gathering where He told His disciples about those not found being ready and thrust out of the Kingdom of God because there has to be some new testament sainst sitting down with them that were not led astray by false prophets.

So how can that be considered the first resurrection in Revelation? Is it referring to that time as the saints coming out of the great tribulation as that is teh first resurrection and the rest of the dead as in reference to the first resurrection.. would occur later? I would say yes. Why?

John 6: 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Was it the Old Testament saints that were raised in their last day?

What is the last day of those coming out of the milleniel reign will be?

We see the term "first resurrection" and believe it to be as the first resurrection since Christ, but there were others that had arisen after his resurrection.

Could this be the first resurrection as in the first fruits, thus pointing to your view of a post harvest of all believers in Christ?

But wait. Jesus said He will lose nothing so how can false prophets lead any astray? How can they be thrust out of the kingdom of God if they were never in it?

This goes to judgment on the House of God first as the sitting down with the OT saints at a meal points to a pre tribulational rapture event.

That is the marriage supper as the cost for not being ready and found abiding in Him is to be destroyed from being that vessel unto honour to a vessel unto dishonour in God's House.

I do not see the seperating of such vessels at any time other than before the great tribulation.

That is why I see Jesus coming back with the firstfruits of the resurrection to meet those left behind with new believers at His coming.

Then you have the harvest at the end of the milleniel reign of Christ after Jesus defeats the devil for the last time.

I know I cannot show you what the Lord has shown me because it will take the Lord to show you as He did for me.

In any event, the call is to be ready and be found abiding in Him. may we look to the author and finsiher of our faith to present us as the chaste bride of Christ as a vessel unto honour in God's House for He is able.

Gideon said, clearly as I mentioned before, this is not by any means the first resurrection. If everyone that was resurrected in the past were considered the actual resurrection we could look at Larzarus, the boy whom Elijah prayed for etc. The key is none of these were raised to immortality as will be on the day of the first resurrection unto life eternal; they will never die again. The resurrection we see, in the reference you provided was an act of mercy as Lasarus's was, where Jesus allowed people to be resurrected into their immortal bodies and live out a normal life on earth and then die again; these resurrected saints died, as they did not go to heaven with Jesus when he was ascended, nor are they living amoungst us now.

The resurrection we see in Revelation 20 is the only first resurrection that will apply to the immortalization of all the saints from throughout the ages, including the ones in Mathew 27:52, Lazarus, the little boy in Elijah's day, etc: they shall rise again to immortality in order to reign in the Kingdom with Christ. Previously these In Mathew 27 arose to mortality by an act of mercy, demonstrating the power of the resurrection for the early church. They again died, as they must raise again to immortality. How do I know this? Jesus has told us, all will raise on the last day. All whom the Father has given him.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 7:37In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Jhn 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jhn 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

We see the same event ocurring in chapters 7, 11, and 14 of Revelation also. THey are not different first resurrections, but rather, repeats of the same event with others details given to us. How do I know this? Simple, they all occur at the end o the Great Tribulation. Recognizing the signs of His return clearly depicts that for us. Some of the signs are the last trumpet being sound, Jesus is possessor of the earthly kingdom, Satan loses his rule on earth, God's wrath comes at the end of the Great Tribulation and not during, the saints rise to receive rewards, time is no longer and ends, The great men of earth cry to mountains fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne, we see the gathering of the resurrected saints around the great throne as Jesus is returned to earth, etc etc.

The harvest at the end of the Millennial reign are those whom were left on earth to repopulate the earth; the 144,000 and many from all nations; whom neither accepted Christ or the Mark of the beast during the time of Satan's rule on earth; I believe these in limbo will have opportunity to come to Christ during the millennium. Not much is given to us concerning these besides people will come from all nations to worship the Messiah. The Messiah will give rain for those nation whom keep the Feast, during the Millennium; those whom do not will suffer lack of rain and blessings, etc.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-18-2009 at 07:56 AM..
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:38 AM
 
392 posts, read 307,936 times
Reputation: 27
The resurrection we see, in the reference you provided was an act of mercy as Lasarus's was, where Jesus allowed people to be resurrected into their immortal bodies and live out a normal life on earth and then die again;

Sorry made an error, it should have read their mortal bodies instead of their mmortal bodies.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:49 PM
 
392 posts, read 307,936 times
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Gideon said,

Now I will continue to debunk the pre-tribulation rapture with the rest of this study, the study of The Parable of the Ten Virgins. So far we have demonstrated with the meanings of the terminologies that the five foolish virgins are not Christians Left Behind in some imaginary pre-tribulation rapture, not-chaste as they put it. Rather the foolish virgins are unsaved virgins, having a pretense of salvation, in that they thought they would enter the wedding at the end of the GT, or after the night passed. This tells us they thought they were part of the kingdom of God, but to their surprise had a rude awakening when the bridegroom arrived. The fact that the word foolish is used to describe them proves their position with God, not good. Further, the context of the entire chapter and all three parables is a demonstration of the separation of the sheep’s from the goats when the Day of the Lord occurs. The goats are cast into hell and the sheep are allowed to enter the kingdom on earth, with Christ during the Millennium reign, and forevermore. We see the same pattern of events in Revelation 19 as the bride prepares herself for the Revelation of Christ as he comes to judge and make war with the world and Satan.

Further, we have concluded, the pre-tribulation camps have misconstrued the meanings of the words know, and foolish, there by coming up with the fallacy of pre-tribulationism and dispensationalism. Many will continue to deny this but when we conduct independent studies, the findings are always conclusive and the same, there is no pre-tribulation rapture, it is fallacy, and false doctrine created by men whom were obviously led by Satan. Finally, it does not matter what parable we look at concerning the kingdom and end of the world, the Parable of Noah, The Parable of the Ten Virgins, The Parable of the Wheat and Tares, The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Servants, The Parable of the Sowers, The Parable of the Fig Tree, The Parable of Sheep and Goats, etc etc.; we must conclude the same for all, there is a kingdom in us that becomes immortal when Christ returns at the end of the age. There will be a seperation of the sheep and the Goats. The goats are cast into hell while the sheep join Christ in His reign on earth. It is that simple, Elementary to the saints of the most high.
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 2,440,035 times
Reputation: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said,

Now I will continue to debunk the pre-tribulation rapture with the rest of this study, the study of The Parable of the Ten Virgins. So far we have demonstrated with the meanings of the terminologies that the five foolish virgins are not Christians Left Behind in some imaginary pre-tribulation rapture, not-chaste as they put it. Rather the foolish virgins are unsaved virgins, having a pretense of salvation, in that they thought they would enter the wedding at the end of the GT, or after the night passed. This tells us they thought they were part of the kingdom of God, but to their surprise had a rude awakening when the bridegroom arrived. The fact that the word foolish is used to describe them proves their position with God, not good. Further, the context of the entire chapter and all three parables is a demonstration of the separation of the sheep’s from the goats when the Day of the Lord occurs. The goats are cast into hell and the sheep are allowed to enter the kingdom on earth, with Christ during the Millennium reign, and forevermore. We see the same pattern of events in Revelation 19 as the bride prepares herself for the Revelation of Christ as he comes to judge and make war with the world and Satan.

Further, we have concluded, the pre-tribulation camps have misconstrued the meanings of the words know, and foolish, there by coming up with the fallacy of pre-tribulationism and dispensationalism. Many will continue to deny this but when we conduct independent studies, the findings are always conclusive and the same, there is no pre-tribulation rapture, it is fallacy, and false doctrine created by men whom were obviously led by Satan. Finally, it does not matter what parable we look at concerning the kingdom and end of the world, the Parable of Noah, The Parable of the Ten Virgins, The Parable of the Wheat and Tares, The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Servants, The Parable of the Sowers, The Parable of the Fig Tree, The Parable of Sheep and Goats, etc etc.; we must conclude the same for all, there is a kingdom in us that becomes immortal when Christ returns at the end of the age. There will be a seperation of the sheep and the Goats. The goats are cast into hell while the sheep join Christ in His reign on earth. It is that simple, Elementary to the saints of the most high.
I would have never thought that the parable of the ten virgins was connected to the pre-tribulation belief and I believe in the rapture. Anyway, simply put it is about not being ready for the Lord. You need to look up what John MacArthur has to say about the Rapture or Chuck Smith. Two highly respected Godly men who have churches with thousands that attend. That type of fruit (or witness) is worthy of recognization as these fine men are definately not being led by Satan, lol.
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