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Old 12-18-2009, 06:29 PM
 
392 posts, read 447,682 times
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Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
I would have never thought that the parable of the ten virgins was connected to the pre-tribulation belief and I believe in the rapture. Anyway, simply put it is about not being ready for the Lord. You need to look up what John MacArthur has to say about the Rapture or Chuck Smith. Two highly respected Godly men who have churches with thousands that attend. That type of fruit (or witness) is worthy of recognization as these fine men are definately not being led by Satan, lol.
Gideon said, yes absolutely it does have something to do with the second coming of Christ as all the parables in Chapter 25 do, and they are very synonymous with each other. We see the same pattern in Mathew 24. It has to do with those who are saved and those whom are not and will not be, ever. It also shows things that will most definitely transpire at the close of the age which is the end of the GT.

I have a difference of opinion with the men you mention, and I think they are lead by Satan; it does not matter if they have a church with 50,000 members. Pre-Tribulationist claim this as one of their cornerstones to prove their theory. The scripture tell us specifically that many false prophets would arise and deceive many. The biggest misconception and deception we have in our churches is not obvious to most, but it the wishful thinking and believing in a false pre-tribulation rapture, not found in scripture anywhere. We are told we must know the differences in dispensationalism, which is not in scripture either. As a matter of fact, scripture clearly teaches against this heresy. II Peter tells us that many false prophets shall come and teach damnable heresies. This so happens to be the biggest heresy we see, IMHO, in our churches today. Numbers mean nothing but prove that fact that many would be lead astray in this day and age we live in.

II Thessalonians clearly teaches us that an incorrect belief in the second coming and a love for this error of pre-tribulationism can put one into eternal damnation if they are not saved. I do not take the doctrine of the rapture lightly.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-18-2009 at 06:54 PM..
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said, yes absolutely it does have something to do with the second coming of Christ as all the parables in Chapter 25 do, and they are very synonymous with each other. We see the same pattern in Mathew 24. It has to do with those who are saved and those whom are not and will not be, ever. It also shows things that will most definitely transpire at the close of the age which is the end of the GT.

Quote:
I have a difference of opinion with the men you mention, and I think they are lead by Satan; it does not matter if they have a church with 50,000 members. Pre-Tribulationist claim this as one of their cornerstones to prove their theory. The scripture tell us specifically that many false prophets would arise and deceive many
. The biggest misconception and deception we have in our churches is not obvious to most, but it the wishful thinking and believing in a false pre-tribulation rapture, not found in scripture anywhere. We are told we must know the differences in dispensationalism, which is not in scripture either. As a matter of fact, scripture clearly teaches against this heresy. II Peter tells us that many false prophets shall come and teach damnable heresies. This so happens to be the biggest heresy we see, IMHO, in our churches today. Numbers mean nothing but prove that fact that many would be lead astray in this day and age we live in.


II Thessalonians clearly teaches us that an incorrect belief in the second coming and a love for this error of pre-tribulationism can put one into eternal damnation if they are not saved. I do not take the doctrine of the rapture lightly.
Wow!!! To say that these men are of the devil is quite brazen. In fact scripture also tells us that religious leaders accused Jesus of being of the devil because he cast out demons. (Mark 3:6-35) Don't you realize that a house divided against itself cannot stand? Do you know what you are saying here Gideon?

With this said I do need to say one last thing and then I won't be posting again because I will not engage in the Satanic behavior that these arguments promote. If you have ears to hear then you will hear that the Lord is not pleased with the arguments and dissention that is taking place on this thread in the name of Christianity regarding the subject of the rapture and end time disagreements.

One final thought Gideon. I challenge you to read the entire article on the following link and then pray about it. Peace to you my brother and may God be with you.

A Message to My Pre-Trib Visitors
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:23 AM
 
392 posts, read 447,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
Wow!!! To say that these men are of the devil is quite brazen. In fact scripture also tells us that religious leaders accused Jesus of being of the devil because he cast out demons. (Mark 3:6-35) Don't you realize that a house divided against itself cannot stand? Do you know what you are saying here Gideon?

With this said I do need to say one last thing and then I won't be posting again because I will not engage in the Satanic behavior that these arguments promote. If you have ears to hear then you will hear that the Lord is not pleased with the arguments and dissention that is taking place on this thread in the name of Christianity regarding the subject of the rapture and end time disagreements.

One final thought Gideon. I challenge you to read the entire article on the following link and then pray about it. Peace to you my brother and may God be with you.

A Message to My Pre-Trib Visitors

Gideon said, Jesus did not come to unite but to divide; peace on earth does not come until the millennium. If one proclaims false doctrine on an immence mass scale as the men you have mentioned; they most certainly are enemies to the Gospel and dangerous to mankind. We as believers are to mark them and their heresies, and disassociate ourselve from them. A house divided from error will stand; while one divided against itself containing error and accepting error as though it were God's divine truths will not stand. The division does not come in seperation from heresies but rather in seperation from truth and acceptance of lies.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2Pe 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luk 12:54And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

Luk 12:55 And when [ye see] the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.

Luk 12:56 [Ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?



God does not take false prophecying lightly; nor does He take the doctrine of imminence lightly but refers to it as a damnable heresy in II Thes 2. Paul tells us very specifically what must occur before Jesus comes; there must be an apostacy, the man of sin must be revealed, and finally Satan must do all his evil deeds first. Then and only then will Jesus appear. To say otherwise is an escapest mentality misleading many, as Tim Lahaye has done with Left Behind; he also is a false prophet and time will reveal that.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2Pe 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Luk 12:57Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-19-2009 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 12-20-2009, 12:14 PM
 
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More symbolism portrayed in The Parable of the Ten Virgins. When we look at the parable we see more symbolism depicted and realize from a biblical perspective. We can look at the lamps first and see that the lamps most likely represent the word or God, The Holy Bible. All the virgins had lamps but not all had oil. We see David in the Psalms has said, thy word is a lamp unto my feet. God's word is supposed to be a lamp unto our feet, but without oil to carry us through the night and dark times it is of no use to us. Just as the lamps without oil to the foolish virgins was of no use to them in the dark; the unsaved in our churches have the word of God but do not have oil of the Holy Spirit. There must be about 50% of the people in our churches that hold the word or God, take it to church, read it and claim it as their sole authority in their lives that do not have oil or the Holy Spirit in them.

When Jesus says at that time, what time is he refering to? All appearances, logic, and transliterations prove he is talking about the end of the world and His second coming. Just previously in Chapter 24 we see all the other parables that relate to the end and second coming. The chapter concludes with the wicked being cast in hell and the righteus being spared to dwell on earth. Then Mathew 25 pics up and the first statement we see is And at that time the kingdom of Heaven will be likened unto the 10 virgins. The kingdom of heaven is that which is manifest on earth at the end of the world and at the appearance of the bridegroom. He returns to bring the kingdom to earth, as he now will reign on earth with the saints. The wise whom have the Holy Spirit will be allowed to enter, while the foolish are not. The foolish are not allowed to enter because Jesus, the bridegroom never knew them; they did not have oil or the Holy Spirit. Hence the were not saved... The door is shut and there is no more opportunity to come in and receive the Holy Spirit


7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour




1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-20-2009 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 12-20-2009, 12:15 PM
 
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:31 PM
 
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I must say first of all that it appears many of the commentaries have diluted the meaning of the parable of the ten virgins, as they attempt to misconstrue it as being related to and pointing to a pre-tribulational second coming. The roots of this misconception, deception, and pretension are well grounded as they go all the way back to Darby and Scofield's time. We see that in many bibles, but I would like to encourage you to avoid some of these commentaries and try using your own senses. Scofield was the originator of such propoganda. Example, my senses tell me that Mathew 24 and 25 are all part of one conversation Jesus had with the disciples, and it, the conversation, was related to the end of the world and Jesus’ second coming. All the parables clearly send that message. Mathew 24 ends with the parable that speaks of Jesus giving his church food when He returns, meat. Now, nowhere does Jesus hint or point to a two part second coming in either chapter, nor do any of the prophets, apostles or disciples. Ancient church fathers never believed in such a thing as a pre-tribulational rapture. In any event as we look at the conclusion or last third of Mathew 24 Jesus begins to speak in parables; all the parables from the end of Mathew 24 on through Mathew 25, which is a continuation of the conversation in 24, seem to most definitely depict, demonstrate, and prove a post tribulation return of Christ and a post-tribulation union of Christ with the believers, sevants, virgins, etc. Prior to the parables at the end of Mathew 24 Jesus speaks in general terms and shows us all the signs of His coming from a worldly, generalized perspective, so all in the world could understand and see the signs of His second coming. During the parables which follow, at the end of Mathew 24 and on through the entire chapter of 25, he brings it down to the personel level of the individual, it seems, with many classes and occupations of people. They also show us two primary catagories of people in these various personal levels, present on earth at his return, the saved and unsaved, the wise and the foolish. Many pretribulationists commentaries seem to attempt making us believe the foolish virgins are saved foolish saints, left behind, because they were not ready for Jesus. Yet, if that were the case it would contradict itself by not being parrellel with the translated terminology and all the other parables that surround it. BTW, this left behind ideology was not present until the left behind series came into being. Back in the early 80's and so forth, pre-tribbers believed Jesus would come and take all the saints but the backslidden ones or foolish virgin type would suffer loss of rewards when they would be raptured along with and along side, with the wise virgins before the tribulation, to heaven to face the beama. At the beama the wise virgins would get rewards, while the foolish are only promised eternal life. So their doctrine has changed over the years and seems to make less and less sense when compared to scripture. Currently the concensus in pre-tribulationism is the foolish virgins are those left behind to face the tribulation God pours on the world. There are enormous problems with that dogma.


As we go on to the next level of this study, just remember, when Jesus speaks in parables he uses things, people, places, times etc. to teach us a spiritual applications we can use to assist us in our lives and walk with God and to assist us in discovering the times to yet come to pass.I believe the parable of the 10 virgins has a lot of symbolism in it, as the lamp, midnight, the oil, the fire, wise and foolish, Lord Lord, I know you not, the door is shut, the knocking etc. We will look at some of these details and their symbolism as related to biblical history, and writings. We will also cover the fire and the lamps. We have covered the lamps as being the word of God, but I would like to expound on that a bit.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-22-2009 at 06:56 PM..
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
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A point to take into consideration is the things as they were prior to the cross and the things after the cross.
You see, Jesus could say only what was required prior to the cross with a promise of what was to come after the cross.
The parable was to watch and wait for that event in time were the promises Jesus made should come true.
Those who heard the words but did nothing, remained as the foolish virgins, but those who took Jesus' words to heart, saw those promises realized at the resurrection of Jesus.

Just look at the attitude of the Apostles after they had seen Jesus?

Any story in the bible can be made out to anything the imagination desires, but the spiritual truth is, be watchful and wait for the coming of Jesus into your heart

When you do receive Jesus into your heart, Jesus (bridegroom) has come as promised.

The first time, Jesus came in the flesh, the second time is into your heart!

Blessings, AJ
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
A point to take into consideration is the things as they were prior to the cross and the things after the cross.
You see, Jesus could say only what was required prior to the cross with a promise of what was to come after the cross.
The parable was to watch and wait for that event in time were the promises Jesus made should come true.
Those who heard the words but did nothing, remained as the foolish virgins, but those who took Jesus' words to heart, saw those promises realized at the resurrection of Jesus.

Just look at the attitude of the Apostles after they had seen Jesus?

Any story in the bible can be made out to anything the imagination desires, but the spiritual truth is, be watchful and wait for the coming of Jesus into your heart

When you do receive Jesus into your heart, Jesus (bridegroom) has come as promised.

The first time, Jesus came in the flesh, the second time is into your heart!

Blessings, AJ
Gideon said,
The coming being spoken of here is His Apokolypcia, Revelation, Parousia, and Epiphay, the apentesis; these events by no means have occured yet. The parable of the virgins speaks very specificly of the bridegroom coming to take his beloved, whom he places in an immortal state or existence, into the wedding feast of his eternal reign., The Kingdom of Heaven within us, The Hope of Glory. We shall reign with Him as Kings and priests. We see that very clearly as we look at the closes of both Chapter 24 and 25, and the entire chapters themselves. Each gives accounts that only most occur at the end of the age, when the Great Tribulation ends and Christ establishes his eternal Kingdom, as seen throughout scripture, from the OT on through The Revelation. So the parable of the ten virgins has not been entirely played out. I understand what you are saying, but we must remember Jesus is speaking of Eschatology or the end times, which we live in today. The context of both entire chapters is the end of the world and His return. I understand the kingdom of heaven has been growing since his ascention, but it by no means has been established on earth yet, nor in us in immortality.
7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed



The kingdom is given to the saints of the Most High, El Eleon, The Master of the Universe.


21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

The beast forcing the Mark of the Beast upon us, a physical mark of a sign of worship towards the beast; most likely a digital RFD microchip, forcing us to accept in order to buy or sell.

22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Satan makes war with the saints until Christ or the ancient of Days, The I Am, or self existant eternal one returns to take possession of the kingdom and establish His saints eternally in it. This also proves a post tribulation rapture, for Satan makes war with us until Christ returns. Christ does not return before Satan makes war with God's elect. Yes the church has seen persectutions in the past, but we have never been at war with Satan as Daniel is prophecying here.

23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-22-2009 at 09:32 PM..
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:54 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
error
That happens to everybody, including me.

I understand your disdain for those that use the pre tribulation rapture to prompt more givings from the congregation, but not everyone that believes in the pre tribulation rapture is asking for money. I'm not: so I'd wish you would refer to the specific evil instead of blanketting the whole of the teaching of the pre tribulation rapture as of the devil.

Your real angst should be against those, whomever you are seeing, as profitting off of it through the churches, right?

Try not to make the mistake that the world makes by looking at the RCC as they claim to preach Christ the Saviour, but turn around and point to the RCC and the works therein as a means to receive life. Should the world turn a deaf ear because christianity got a black eye from the RCC? Then you should not turn a deaf ear simply because the teaching of the pre tribulation rapture got a black eye from those that use it as a means to prompt more givings in their churches for their own personal gain.

Not every believer will know everything. The pre tribulation rapture in according to my beliefs is that God has hid it from plain view as He did by using parables. If you do not see it, I'm not going to condemn you as of the devil for not seeing it. If you are abiding in Christ, whethor you believe in the rapture or not, you are going to be taken by the Bridegroom. By His grace alone, I'm using the pre tribulation rapture to call believers to be ready and abiding in Him now without monetary gain.

Let me refer you to this verse:

Matthew 13: 33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

This is the only single verse parable I know of in the Bible.

You cannot refer to the parable before nor the one after it for its meaning for each parable has its own meaning and is given for believers to discern that meaning on its own.

Discern the meaning of this parable in how the kingdom of heaven is made up as a whole.

Then explain why it is written that the kingdom of heaven is "hid" in three measures that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.

And yes, it is in relation to the pre tribulation rapture, but you lean on the Lord for the meaning of that single verse parable.

If you still do not see it, so be it, brother. I just hope you are abiding in Him when He appears.

Please do not refer to other scriptures to understand the parable. Just stick to that one verse.
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Old 12-23-2009, 08:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said, yes absolutely it does have something to do with the second coming of Christ as all the parables in Chapter 25 do, and they are very synonymous with each other. We see the same pattern in Mathew 24. It has to do with those who are saved and those whom are not and will not be, ever. It also shows things that will most definitely transpire at the close of the age which is the end of the GT.

I have a difference of opinion with the men you mention, and I think they are lead by Satan; it does not matter if they have a church with 50,000 members. Pre-Tribulationist claim this as one of their cornerstones to prove their theory. The scripture tell us specifically that many false prophets would arise and deceive many. The biggest misconception and deception we have in our churches is not obvious to most, but it the wishful thinking and believing in a false pre-tribulation rapture, not found in scripture anywhere. We are told we must know the differences in dispensationalism, which is not in scripture either. As a matter of fact, scripture clearly teaches against this heresy. II Peter tells us that many false prophets shall come and teach damnable heresies. This so happens to be the biggest heresy we see, IMHO, in our churches today. Numbers mean nothing but prove that fact that many would be lead astray in this day and age we live in.

II Thessalonians clearly teaches us that an incorrect belief in the second coming and a love for this error of pre-tribulationism can put one into eternal damnation if they are not saved. I do not take the doctrine of the rapture lightly.
You don't even understand what you are talking about. First of all, the only reason a person goes into the Lake of Fire is because they have not believed in Christ. If an incorrect understanding of the rapture caused eternal damnation, then you would be one of the lost.

And you continue to deny that God's plan involves dispensations. Dispensations have to do with the various ways that God administers His plan to different groups of people at different times in human history.

I will once again invite anyone who is interested to go to my link which will introduce the subject of dispensations.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ons-bible.html

To call dispensations a heresy is asinine. But that people can reject such an obvious doctrine of the Bible explains how they can be so ignorant of the fact of the rapture preceding the Tribulation.
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