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Old 12-23-2009, 08:45 PM
 
392 posts, read 448,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
That happens to everybody, including me.

I understand your disdain for those that use the pre tribulation rapture to prompt more givings from the congregation, but not everyone that believes in the pre tribulation rapture is asking for money. I'm not: so I'd wish you would refer to the specific evil instead of blanketting the whole of the teaching of the pre tribulation rapture as of the devil.

Your real angst should be against those, whomever you are seeing, as profitting off of it through the churches, right?

Try not to make the mistake that the world makes by looking at the RCC as they claim to preach Christ the Saviour, but turn around and point to the RCC and the works therein as a means to receive life. Should the world turn a deaf ear because christianity got a black eye from the RCC? Then you should not turn a deaf ear simply because the teaching of the pre tribulation rapture got a black eye from those that use it as a means to prompt more givings in their churches for their own personal gain.

Not every believer will know everything. The pre tribulation rapture in according to my beliefs is that God has hid it from plain view as He did by using parables. If you do not see it, I'm not going to condemn you as of the devil for not seeing it. If you are abiding in Christ, whethor you believe in the rapture or not, you are going to be taken by the Bridegroom. By His grace alone, I'm using the pre tribulation rapture to call believers to be ready and abiding in Him now without monetary gain.

Let me refer you to this verse:

Matthew 13: 33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

This is the only single verse parable I know of in the Bible.

You cannot refer to the parable before nor the one after it for its meaning for each parable has its own meaning and is given for believers to discern that meaning on its own.

Discern the meaning of this parable in how the kingdom of heaven is made up as a whole.

Then explain why it is written that the kingdom of heaven is "hid" in three measures that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.

And yes, it is in relation to the pre tribulation rapture, but you lean on the Lord for the meaning of that single verse parable.

If you still do not see it, so be it, brother. I just hope you are abiding in Him when He appears.

Please do not refer to other scriptures to understand the parable. Just stick to that one verse.
Gideon said,
Thanks for your concern Enow; I hope God will open your eyes to the truth. I will start with your last statement of stick to one verse. Truthfully that is extraordinarily foolish on your part to say or request that. We must take scriptures and compare them in order to see that they convey the same thing, and I must stress they do. The Bible is a very sound book. The bible teaches us to build doctrine verse by verse, line by line and precept upon precept. As far as your mention of sticking to one verse, I want you to think about how foolish that statement is for a few reasons. Now think about that for a while. Think about it. First of all, you do not do that yourself, ever; yet you still take scripture at times out of context and now you prove yourself to have made an incredible mistake. Secondly, what if we took the verse, And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. and left it at that; that would really be stupid. We could interpret that as Jesus died and never rose again. As I said before we must take surrounding verses many times to figure out the context of a verse, period. At times we must take surrounding chapters or an entire book to build around one verse as this one. We know Jesus died and rose again the third day; he also ministered for forty days. Yet that one verse he gave up the ghost does not tell us this; nor does it tell us what he did prevous to this event or of the event in his life that lead to it and prophecied of it. That is a known fact of life by any areudite bible scholar or anyone with an iota of spirituality will realize we must read many verses most of the times to figure out the context of a passage or verse. If we left the verse mentioned at that, we not see the temple veal was rent. We would not see the centurion, whom most likely stabed him with the sword, confessing truly this is the Son of God etc, etc.

If we left things at one verse we would not see in Revelation 17:15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew; We would not see that Jesus up until the end of the Great Tribulation has still not come as a thief as you have claimed he already did come seven years earlier in revelation 3:10; which you also take out of context because Revelation 3:10 not only is not a pre-tribulation rapture, but it is something that is occuring during the GT. We would not see him warning the saints to endure until the end and watch. Clearly we see in Revelation 17 as in the parable of the virgins, Jesus comes as a thief at the end of the Great Tribulation to those whom can not see, and can not watch because they know not the signs of the times. We see clearly Jesus comes as a thief in Revelation 17, at the end of the GT, after the seventh angel pours his vial and after Babylon the Great or America is destroyed. Yet, the parable of the Ten virgins and in all the surrounding parables we see some things: Jesus comes as a thief to those not watching, there are two classes of people (saved and unsaved), Jesus comes at the end of the GT, His kingdom is established at the end of the GT, the sheep are allowed in the kingdom, the goats are cast into hell, etc. All events are synonomous. It is not complicated. You complicated it by trying to build your own carnal doctrine around what is clearly written as not such. Instead you prefer to trust your pastor or church tradition, vain traditions of men. Hey, now, can't you see Jesus comes as a thief at the end of the GT, in Revelation 17, and not before. You are not capable of showing one verse that states otherwise because now you must only use one verse as you claim we must; secondly you can not show us one verse
because there is none in scripture to prove your point.

Thanks for your concern Enow; I hope God will open your eyes to the truth. I do not think a pastor has to say that if you do not give to the church Jesus will leave you behind. This dogma has already been incorporated in churches that hold the doctrine as God's inspired truth for over a century; so Satan has his roots deep in the hearts of church leaders and their members. We have seen many insinuate that if they are not right with God when Jesus appears that they will be left behind; hence following every instruction the pastor teaches, including pre-tribulationism is a must, lest Jesus leave you behind. Pastors do this unconsciously for the most part, because they are stuck in a rut of tradition; but I strongly believe Darby and Scofield did this for profits sake. This tradition also creates profits for churches through the exploitation of the subconsious minds of members.

By the way, I have many verses in scripture to prove the post-tribulation fact, as they have been presented already. Even some have been presented in this post, those contained in Revelation 17, the end of the GT and destruction of Babylon. There are many more remaining, many more. A 1000 page book could easily be written using scripture to prove this. Yet all pre-tribulationism can do is use a few verses, whom the average person knows not what they say, and build their fallacy around that. Pre-tribulationism also discredits verses that show us a post tribulation return and attempt to tell us that it is another second coming, when Jesus touches earth at the end of the GT. There is not one single verse, not one, that tells us there will be a pre-tribulation second coming, not one I repeat. Lest you dare show us one. There is not one verse that tells us there are two parts to the second coming; if that were the case Jesus would have called it the third coming, or at least told us about it.


Now I have posted the passge below, because in it are found the signs of the coming of Christ. Not only is the darkening of the heavens one of the last, but the kings gathering to battle Christ in the valley is also. God puts it in their hearts to go there, only to prepare them for to crush them in the winepress of God's wrath, at the the imminent coming of Chirst; suddenly they see Jesus and try to fight Him, Imangine the stupidity of that one. They try to fight the one God, King, Jesus that comes to judge and make war, King of Kings, and Lord or Lords, wow. What stupidity???


12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Pretribulationists claim Jesus does not come as a thief at the end of the GT. They say, people will know then of this second, second coming, because it, The GT, only last 3.5 years. Hence even the unsaved can count down 3.5 years, but they forget God's prophecy and majesty in II Thessalonians 1 and 2, how stupid of them!!! I don't know how but God sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. They are of the night and can not see, as we do; they are blinded to spiritual truths. The day will over take them as a thief in the night. Yet God comes as a thief to those in His strong delusion, but not to the saint led by the Spirit. So even though they may think they can count now, when the 3.5 years of GT, arrives, they will find themselves in darkness, blinded to the truth, and unbable to count the 3.5 years; Jesus comes to them as a thief in the night. Yet inspite of the fact they say he does not come as a thief at the end of the GT; the bible clearly tells us the oposite of what they teach and claim in Revelation 17. Jesus only comes a second time, once, as a thief to the blind or those in darkness, at the end of the GT, as a thief to those whom cannot watch. Jesus comes as a thief to the 5 foolish virgins, whom had no oil or fire. All they had was a wick and a lamp, that was burning out. Notice there is no mention, ever of them having any oil, only that there lamps (wicks were going out).


16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Pretribulationism already has two black eyes, one from exploitation, and the other as being the biggest nontruth in churches today; it is not in the bible. We should call it heresy.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-23-2009 at 10:02 PM..
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:29 PM
 
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33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Enow this is one verse we can take and say that it refers to the kingdom of heaven growing into the entire clump with leaven, on its own.. Strangely, you would not think Jesus would use leaven in such a parable, but it symbolizes possibly the fact that the unclean or leavened gentiles will spread the world to the unleavened, Jews or Israel, and the kingdom of Heaven will grow as a result into one clump, more proof against dispensationalism, btw, as it becomes one clump... That is what I see. It seems to make logical sense with the rest of the parables as the mustard seed. My point is, that these parables are parrellel and speak of the growth of the kingdom of heaven. While the ones in Chapters 24 and 25 speak of another subject, the saved and unsaved, those whom enter and those whom do not enter, those thrown into the fire and those not thrown into the fire, those whom Jesus knows and those whom he does not know, etc. I think if you read around the parable the leaven and clump you will see what I am saying; it is the same subject matter expressed with different parables, as the mustard seed. We can see that the parable of the wheat and tares is that which is the same as we see in Mathew 24, and 25, the seperation of the just and unjust...We must keep things in their logical and proper perspective and we asign a meaning or context to these parables. I do not see the parable of the ten virgins as being different from the ones that surround it; they are all synonomous. I would say that the leaven and the lump and the mustard seed are vastly different from the wheat and the tares; that is obvious.



17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
There is no pretribulation rapture. Jesus comes for the harvest later as he does in the parable of the ten virgins.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are burned in Hell while the wheat is placed in the safety of the barn, the kingdom. They are all gathered at the end, during the harvest, just as we see in Revelation and everywhere else.

31Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-23-2009 at 10:45 PM..
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
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Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Tell me if a conviction by the Holy Spirit is not as like a consuming fire in your spirit?

Not yielding to the conviction as a form of repentance can be hell.

Therefore, the lake of fire is an ever consuming fire of God, and which burns in the hearts of mankind unrepented, and in which all must be thrown in as God deals with each of us individually.

The fire that consumes is of God...love.

Merry Christmas, AJ
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post

Pretribulationism already has two black eyes, one from exploitation, and the other as being the biggest nontruth in churches today; it is not in the bible. We should call it heresy.
Shame on you! Setting yourself up as a teacher to judge God's servants as heretics, when you haven't even learned the first principles of the Oracles of God which He committed to the namesake people of the New Man name.
Go learn the abc's of His one plan and how it will all come about, through His living oracles [the Schoolmaster], before you even try to pretend to be a teacher of wisdom, while yet in your ignorance of the oracles.
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
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Psa 107:16 For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.

Look at that verse in light of this one:
[SIZE=3]Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
The door is opened that no man can shut, opened to Jesus by God to all those who are in Jesus.

Therefore, no longer is there a holding place that would prervent any of us from going streaith to God's domain, call it whatever you please, but to me.....it is heaven.

What prevented us from going directly to heaven was the lack of a fulfillment of the law by any of us.

God therefore, fulfilled His own law Himself in Jesus for all of us, thus opening the door of heaven (brass) and the the bars barring us from heaven in the prison gates of what is understood as paradise or hell, which ever you chose to believe.

[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]Zec 9:11[/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=3] As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
Be free! [/SIZE][SIZE=3][SIZE=3]Gal 5:1[/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=3] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]
A promise if you but just stand firm on the foundation which is Jesus Christ, you shall be saved!
No if's and but's.

merry Christmas, AJ
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
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Quote:
Pretribulationism already has two black eyes, one from exploitation, and the other as being the biggest nontruth in churches today; it is not in the bible. We should call it heresy.
The new Testament is a work book of works to where we all must work out our salvation.

Because there are so many different views of the same things, only lends to the fact that if God does not save us all, we are doomed to save ourselves.

Merry Christmas, AJ
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Shame on you! Setting yourself up as a teacher to judge God's servants as heretics, when you haven't even learned the first principles of the Oracles of God which He committed to the namesake people of the New Man name.
Go learn the abc's of His one plan and how it will all come about, through His living oracles [the Schoolmaster], before you even try to pretend to be a teacher of wisdom, while yet in your ignorance of the oracles.
Gideon said, I donot have to be the judge, God's words already has done that for me.


him.

1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I still say, Jack Van Impe, Roger Voegtlin, Darby, Scofield, Tim Lahaye, Bob Jones, and any false teacher that teaches and promotes pre-tribulationism is a heretic or a saint whom is deceive following heresy; so there you go. They are heretics, ones opposed to the teachings, precepts, doctrines and principals of the apostles, desciples, prophets and Christ. They need to read God's words and refrain from vain traditions of men, doctrines of demons, heresies, foolish fables, fairytales, damnable heresies; contrary to the teachings, priciples and doctrines in scripture. Any that promotes this heresy is a heretic; any that has pleasure in this error or unrighteousness and seen in II Thessalonians 2 is in danger of God's damnation. So if you believe it, study it before you attempt to make others believe these damnable heresies of Darbyism, the illuminist, and of the Jesuits. If you know you are genuinely saved and do not know what to believe but have been taught this heresy; study the bible thouroughly; dont take my work or word for it. Be a Berean; search the scriptures for truth.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-24-2009 at 02:18 PM..
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You don't even understand what you are talking about. First of all, the only reason a person goes into the Lake of Fire is because they have not believed in Christ. If an incorrect understanding of the rapture caused eternal damnation, then you would be one of the lost.

And you continue to deny that God's plan involves dispensations. Dispensations have to do with the various ways that God administers His plan to different groups of people at different times in human history.

I will once again invite anyone who is interested to go to my link which will introduce the subject of dispensations.

www.city-data.com/forum/christanity/771235-dispensations-bible.html

To call dispensations a heresy is asinine. But that people can reject such an obvious doctrine of the Bible explains how they can be so ignorant of the fact of the rapture preceding the Tribulation.

Gideon said,
I am not saying an incorrect understanding of the rapture damns one to hell. Sons and daughers of God whom are truly of the kingdom will come to truth, as the Spirit will lead them in all truth, even the second coming. I have never said, that which you obviously do not understand.. Now there are many in our churches whom have pleasure in this error and their legitamacy as sons of God may be questionable; God only knows. Scripture does give us enough light to instruct us that those whom are not saved and pretend to be (the foolish virgin type) cannot know the things and doctrines of Christ and the men of God. They are foolishness unto them. For such a reason we see some that can never get the teachings in scripture; they most likely are illegitamate sons or daughters of God. They go to church, read bibles, carry them, pray amoungst us, some may be pk kids, but have not the spirity of God. Perhaps they are relying on works salvation or something else. The bible clearly teaches that. All though it be not food for babes. You misinterpret the dispensation of Israel and the church, as you do this verse also. Pre-tribulationism has perverted the second coming of CHrist to please itching ears, whom have pleasure in damnable heresies, an escapest mentality for tribulation which builds our faith and hope; pretribulationism contadicts all principals in scripture that teach us how our faith and hope our built. Faith and hope are built through trials, tribulation, troubles and persecution. One whom wants to escape what scripture tells us is inevitable is one whom has no faith or lacks it; it is one who has no hope or lacks it. For such a reason, God puts us through these events to build our hope and faith in Him. You can show us no verse in scripture that says we will escape tribulation by Jesus secretly steeling us away to heaven in a cloud, guarantee you. This ideology is a fairytale.

10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Ok, now look at that, Jesus still has not come ath the end of the GT, after the seventh bowl is poured, after Babylon is destroyed; he still has not come, but he still tells us to be ready. How do you explain that bible truth away. You claim he came seven years earlier as a thief to you, unawares, unexpected, at any moment. Here we see he still has not come for the bride, the church.



16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-24-2009 at 02:24 PM..
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
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Quote:
Now there are many in our churches whom have pleasure in this error and their legitimacy as sons of God may be questionable; God only knows.
This is a big problem of judgment. Are we to make a judgment as to their eternal fate?

What judgments we can make are towards human behavior and nothing more.

God deals with individuals in the spiritual while we deal with the physical.

That is why we pray that God in the spiritual will effect what we may think is Gods will in the lives of other who we deem need it.

Quote:
Scripture does give us enough light to instruct us that those whom are not saved and pretend to be (the foolish virgin type) cannot know the things and doctrines of Christ and the men of God.

That is absolutely correct, but not to be used to make judgments on others but rather, to judge ourselves according to those principles of that parable and for us to prepare ourselves and wait on the Lord.

Faith and hope are built through trials, tribulation, troubles and persecution.

That is an absolute! And designed to be just that!

What should rather be, in place of an argument, is a presentation of the Devine love given on our behalf, to the changing of the inner man to that of the Christ.

Blessings, AJ
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
This is a big problem of judgment. Are we to make a judgment as to their eternal fate?

What judgments we can make are towards human behavior and nothing more.

God deals with individuals in the spiritual while we deal with the physical.

That is why we pray that God in the spiritual will effect what we may think is Gods will in the lives of other who we deem need it.


That is absolutely correct, but not to be used to make judgments on others but rather, to judge ourselves according to those principles of that parable and for us to prepare ourselves and wait on the Lord.

Faith and hope are built through trials, tribulation, troubles and persecution.

That is an absolute! And designed to be just that!

What should rather be, in place of an argument, is a presentation of the Devine love given on our behalf, to the changing of the inner man to that of the Christ.

Blessings, AJ
Gideon said God's word does all the judging; he has given us instruction so we do not remain in ignorance or so we are not caught by surprise or off guard. Yes it would not surprise me if many whom have pleasure in this heretical doctrine of pre-tribulationism are not saved. Now I never said anybody in specific terms was not saved, but surely God has told us the natural man cannot grasp the things of God. They are foolishness unto him. He cannot know them. It would not surprise me if Darby and Scofield were not saved. We see that depiction clearly in the parable of the ten virgins. They all had lamps or the word of God, they were all virtuous; yet the foolish had no oil or the Holy Spirit. They did not have the anointing oil of olives which is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. Nor was their light burning to take them through the night. Though they appeared religious, they did not know nor were they known by the bridegroom. They were foolish, sack religious, carnal, impious, and irreverent, etc. Certainly they had a guise of sainthood but were not saints. Now it concerns me greatly; when we know we are right as post-tribulationists and we show some the proof, over and over again from scripture and some just do not get it; and they continue to mock God's words being in error. That is a legitimate concern. God's word tells us the carnal man will not know the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned. If they have not the Spirit, they cannot discern. God said it not me. Yes, we have the right as saints abiding in his truths, recorded in His word to wonder if some of these are even saved. Now take note; I never said any was not saved. So please do not put words into my mouth as to insinuate that I have spoken something I did not. We can certainly wonder of their legitimacy as sons and daughters of God, because God gives us the criteria in His word. If God did not want us to wonder, He would have never put this in His word. Do you understand this?

Now where does this leave us? Well if the tribulation were to fall on us suddenly and of course we know Jesus comes after Satan’s evil works or after the wrath of Satan, do not be surprise if many pre-tribulationists find themselves trapped and suffering God’s strong delusion, since they have had pleasure in unrighteousness or in doctrinal errors; especially those as Tim Lahaye, Jack Van Impe, etc, whom have had pleasure in telling people lies, unrighteouness or errors, and they have been misleading the masses. For this reason God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. For they received not the love of the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness or error. God tells us he will damn such, for not receiving the truth, that they might be saved. The truth is broadcast in scripture plainly; but they want American apple pie, Sunday night football and Budweiser. They did not want a Christianity as seen in the Bible, where the saint must have troubles, trials, persecution, and tribulation to get faith, and hope. So they are faithless, and hopeless; many without God because of their carnal nature. Their belief system, which is contrary to all scriptural teachings, doctrines, and precepts, is a reflection of their carnality, which says, “We will not have a God that says we must suffer tribulation to get faith and have hope. We want to make our own God, a god that exempts us from such atrocities and pain. ” This is the heart of the matter. Do not be surprised if many on this forum that just cannot see the reality of God’s word follow and worship the antichrist, thinking he is the Christ. There is no in between, God only has one truth; the others are heresies. Now once again, I am not saying just because one believes in the pre-tribulation rapture, that they are unsaved, but they need to study and reconsider their actions and beliefs. God will bring all his sons and daughters to the truth, but the Spirit of Truth.
God gives us measuring rods in scripture to judge people; yes I agree, we can not judge who is and who is not saved; though at some point in the tribulation we will be able to. However God has given us enough doctrine and support to mark those whom we question. We can also look at the fruits of the Spirit for more information. God does not play games; His truths are absolute.


Gideon said God's word does all the judging; he has given us instruction so we do not remain in ignorance or so we are not caught by surprise or off guard. Yes it would not surprise me if many whom have pleasure in this heretical doctrine of pre-tribulationism are not saved. Now I never said anybody in specific terms was not saved, but surely God has told us the natural man cannot grasp the things of God. They are foolishness unto him. He cannot know them. It would not surprise me if Darby and Scofield were not saved. We see that depiction clearly in the parable of the ten virgins. They all had lamps or the word of God, they were all virtuous; yet the foolish had no oil or the Holy Spirit. They did not have the anointing oil of olives which is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. Nor was their light burning to take them through the night. Though they appeared religious, they did not know nor were they known by the bridegroom. They were foolish, sack religious, carnal, impious, and irreverent, etc. Certainly they had a guise of sainthood but were not saints. Now it concerns me greatly; when we know we are right as post-tribulationists and we show some the proof, over and over again from scripture and some just do not get it; and they continue to mock God's words being in error. That is a legitimate concern. God's word tells us the carnal man will not know the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned. If they have not the Spirit, they cannot discern. God said it not me. Yes, we have the right as saints abiding in his truths, recorded in His word to wonder if some of these are even saved. Now take note; I never said any was not saved. So please do not put words into my mouth as to insinuate that I have spoken something I did not. We can certainly wonder of their legitimacy as sons and daughters of God, because God gives us the criteria in His word. If God did not want us to wonder, He would have never put this in His word. Do you understand this?

Now where does this leave us? Well if the tribulation were to fall on us suddenly and of course we know Jesus comes after Satan’s evil works or after the wrath of Satan, do not be surprise if many pre-tribulationists find themselves trapped and suffering God’s strong delusion, since they have had pleasure in unrighteousness; especially those as Tim Lahaye, Jack Van Impe, etc, whom have had pleasure in telling people lies, and misleading the masses. For this reason God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. For they received not the love of the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness or error. The truth is broadcast in scripture plainly; but they want American apple pie, Sunday night football and Budweiser. They did not want a Christianity as seen in the Bible, where the saint must have troubles, trials, persecution, and tribulation to get faith, and hope. So they are faithless, and hopeless; many without God because of their carnal nature. Their belief system, which is contrary to all scriptural teachings, doctrines, and precepts, is a reflection of their carnality, which says, “We will not have a God that says we must suffer tribulation to get faith and have hope. We want to make our own God.” This is the heart of the matter. Do not be surprised if many on this forum that just cannot see the reality of God’s word follow and worship the antichrist, thinking he is the Christ. There is no in between, God only has one truth; the others are heresies. Now once again, I am not saying just because one believes in the pre-tribulation rapture, that they are unsaved, but they need to study and reconsider their actions and beliefs.

[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
For 1063 what 5101 man 444 knoweth 1492 the things 3588 of a man 444, save 1508 the spirit 4151 of man 444 which 3588 is in 1722 him 846? even 2532 so 3779 the things 3588 of God 2316 knoweth 1492 no man 3762, but 1508 the Spirit 4151 of God 2316.

1Cr 2:12 Now 1161 we 2249 have received 2983 , not 3756 the spirit 4151 of the world 2889, but 235 the spirit 4151 which 3588 is of 1537 God 2316; that 2443 we might know 1492 the things that are freely given 5483 to us 2254 of 5259 God 2316.

1Cr 2:13 Which things 3739 also 2532 we speak 2980 , not 3756 in 1722 the words 3056 which man's 442 wisdom 4678 teacheth 1318, but 235 which the Holy 40 Ghost 4151 teacheth 1722 1318; comparing 4793 spiritual things 4152 with spiritual 4152.

1Cr 2:14 But 1161 the natural 5591 man 444 receiveth 1209 not 3756 the things 3588 of the Spirit 4151 of God 2316: for 1063 they are 2076 foolishness 3472 unto him 846: neither 2532 3756 can 1410 he know 1097 [them], because 3754 they are spiritually 4153 discerned 350 .

1Cr 2:15 But 1161 he that is spiritual 4152 judgeth 3303 350 all things 3956, yet 1161 he himself 846 is judged 350 of 5259 no man 3762.

1Cr 2:16 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Rom 5:6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. For 1063 who 5101 hath known 1097 the mind 3563 of the Lord 2962, that 3739 he may instruct 4822 him 846? But 1161 we 2249 have 2192 the mind 3563 of Christ 5547.

A perfect picture of the pretibulationist

But 1161 he that received the seed 4687 into 1909 stony places 4075, the same 3778 is 2076 he that heareth 191 the word 3056, and 2532 anon 2117 with 3326 joy 5479 receiveth 2983 it 846;

Mat 13:21 Yet 1161 hath he 2192 not 3756 root 4491 in 1722 himself 1438, but 235 dureth 2076 for a while 4340: for 1161 when tribulation 2347 or 2228 persecution 1375 ariseth 1096 because 1223 of the word 3056,

A saint whom sees no tribulation of some sorts is not a saint.



Confirming 1991 the souls 5590 of the disciples 3101, [and] exhorting them 3870 to continue 1696 in the faith 4102, and 2532 that 3754 we 2248 must 1163 through 1223 much 4183 tribulation 2347 enter 1525 into 1519 the kingdom 932 of God 2316.


Who 5101 shall separate 5563 us 2248 from 575 the love 26 of Christ 5547? [shall] tribulation 2347, or 2228 distress 4730, or 2228 persecution 1375, or 2228 famine 3042, or 2228 nakedness 1132, or 2228 peril 2794, or 2228 sword 3162?

Rejoicing 5463 in hope 1680; patient 5278 in tribulation 2347; continuing instant 4342 in prayer 4335;

Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 2Cr 7:4Great [is] my boldness of speech toward you, great [is] my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation. 1Th 3:4For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.




So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2Th 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Now go ahead, and tell me God is a pre-tribulationist. I will tell you that you do not understand His word. For he and the saints glory in our tribulation because it builds faith and hope. So why would God give us something as a pretribulation rapture, not found anywhere in scripture, as it is diametrically opposed to all bible teachings, pricipals, doctrines and precepts? The answer is he did not; the Devil did. It takes ignorance or a very carnal heart to follow something like that.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-28-2009 at 12:04 AM..
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