U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:33 AM
 
392 posts, read 307,714 times
Reputation: 27
Default The Parable of the Ten Virgins Clearly Proves a Post-Tribulation Return of Christ and Rapture of the Church

Proves a Post-Tribulation Return of Christ and Rapture of the Church As Does the Entire Chapter


This is open for discusion, criticism as you will, only let's not insult each other with harsh words. I do not mind you insulting my thoughts, even if I demonstrate proof, but let's not mud sling please.

Read this carefully, the race in on. I will prove the wedding shows a post-tribulation return and presents a big problem at the same time for the pre-tirbulation camp. Instead of this being helpful to dispensationalism and pre-tribulaitonism it is very harmful and presents many problems; they debunk the ideal or thought of pre-tribulationism. Any verses you can present as supportive to pre-tribulationism are always used in their terminologies to debunk the fallacy by meaingful, logical, reasonalbe interpretation of words from their original text. This can only mean it is heresy.




Matthew 25 (King James Version)


Matthew 25


1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-12-2009 at 10:55 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,958 posts, read 3,293,602 times
Reputation: 902
Yes it does
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:42 AM
 
150 posts, read 168,072 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by gideon7620 View Post
proves a post-tribulation return and rapture of christ as does the entire chapter


this is open for discusion, criticism as you will, only let's not insult each other with harsh words. I do not mind you insulting my thoughts, even if i demonstrate proof, but let's not mud sling please.

Read this carefully, the race in on. I will prove the wedding shows a post-tribulation return and presents a big problem at the same time for the pre-tirbulation camp. Instead of this being helpful to dispensationalism and pre-tribulaitonism it is very harmful and presents many problems; they debunk the ideal or thought of pre-tribulationism. Any verse you can present as supportive to pre-tribulationism is always used in its terminology to debunk it by meaingful, logical, reasonalbe interpretation of words from their original text. This can only mean it is heresy.




matthew 25 (king james version)


matthew 25


1then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2and five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3they that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5while the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6and at midnight there was a cry made, behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8and the foolish said unto the wise, give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9but the wise answered, saying, not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: But go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10and while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: And the door was shut.
11afterward came also the other virgins, saying, lord, lord, open to us.
12but he answered and said, verily i say unto you, i know you not.
13watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the son of man cometh.
14for the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15and unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17and likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18but he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20and so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: Behold, i have gained beside them five talents more.
21his lord said unto him, well done, thou good and faithful servant: Thou hast been faithful over a few things, i will make thee ruler over many things: Enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22he also that had received two talents came and said, lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: Behold, i have gained two other talents beside them.
23his lord said unto him, well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, i will make thee ruler over many things: Enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24then he which had received the one talent came and said, lord, i knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25and i was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: Lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26his lord answered and said unto him, thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that i reap where i sowed not, and gather where i have not strawed:
27thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming i should have received mine own with usury.
28take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29for unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: But from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30and cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32and before him shall be gathered all nations: And he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35for i was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37then shall the righteous answer him, saying, lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? Or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and clothed thee?
39or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40and the king shall answer and say unto them, verily i say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42for i was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43i was a stranger, and ye took me not in: Naked, and ye clothed me not: Sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44then shall they also answer him, saying, lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45then shall he answer them, saying, verily i say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: But the righteous into life eternal.

Amen! I completely agree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:46 AM
 
392 posts, read 307,714 times
Reputation: 27
Thank you guys and gals; you are such an encouragement. I find it logical that most churches are steeped in false doctrine with regards to the timing of our Lord's return. It is so amazing as to how blind they are in interpreting what is clearly written truth. Let's not forget how national Israel rejected and crucified the Messiah inspite of the fact that prophecy said they would do so.

Can someone tell me how to positively give a reputation to someone?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2009, 11:03 AM
 
392 posts, read 307,714 times
Reputation: 27
Remember when we interpret prophecy, king is context. The context is established in this chapter. It is established in all the parables concerning The Kingdom of Heaven. The context is the same for all the parables. The parables give us the same stories about the kingdom of heaven with differing ideals and scenarios in order to shed more light on the subject of the kingdom of Heaven. Can someone help us figure out what the context is here? If not I will attempt doing that.

To say that the Parable of the Ten Virgins means we are out of here in a pre-tribulation rapture is clumsy and foolish and goes contrary to the context of Chapter 25 and to the parable itself. If you want to be one of the foolish virgins that thinks you are out of here sooner than later; that is fine. Go ahead, just do not ask me for oil for your lamp when you come to the realization that the bridegroom comes later than you expected and you do not have enough oil to burn you through the night.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2009, 12:27 PM
 
2,250 posts, read 2,461,963 times
Reputation: 378
Actually, the ten-virgins parable clearly points to a pre-tribulation rapture. The wise virgins will go out to meet the bridegroom; the foolish virgins will be spewed into the tribulation period. The oil that these foolish virgins are missing is the Holy Ghost.

The rapture will be a miracle, just like the parting of the Red Sea was a miracle; and, it will be the power of the Holy Ghost dwelling within a person that will bring about a change in the twinkling of an eye.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2009, 02:19 PM
 
392 posts, read 307,714 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Actually, the ten-virgins parable clearly points to a pre-tribulation rapture. The wise virgins will go out to meet the bridegroom; the foolish virgins will be spewed into the tribulation period. The oil that these foolish virgins are missing is the Holy Ghost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post

The rapture will be a miracle, just like the parting of the Red Sea was a miracle; and, it will be the power of the Holy Ghost dwelling within a person that will bring about a change in the twinkling of an eye.

Gideon said,
Wrong, it is obvious you have missed the entirecontext and concept of all the parables in Mathew 25. You have misconstrued the meaning of the parable by ignoring the rest of the chapter; this is cherry picking verses, not good. They all hold the same context and concept as God’s word never contradicts itself. The wise virgins made preparations for to endure the night as they had extra oil. This proves they new the bridegroom would tarry; they had the Holy Ghost. The foolish, had a facade of the Holy Ghost and expected the bridegroom to arrive earlier. Neither can they understand the parables in scripture for they are foolishness unto them. While the foolish ones had not any oil to carry them through the night, the wise ones had the Holy Ghost and made preparation for enduring the night, and could endure until the end. The foolish expected the bridegroom to come earlier, than what actually resulted, as they had no oil to carry them through the night.


Here in below is the concept of Mathew 25. Remember Jesus is discussing the kingdom of heaven, its arrival, those whom will enter, and those whom will not enter. Those who will not enter are cast into hell and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus has made it so clear it could not be any clearer. He makes it clear in all the parables we see here; that there are two classes of people, those whom are wise and those whom are foolish. This is when we see Jesus coming back in Revelation 6 seated on the throne. Then is Revelation 7 we see the rapture and all the saints standing before the Lamb. We see him coming back as in I Thes 1 with his mighty angels to bring judgment on those whom trouble us until the end. We see the gathering of all the tares and the wheat here. He then divides them as he says in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, the division of the sheep from the goats. The sheep will stay while the goats are cast into outer darkness.

The context of this chapter is there are foolish people on earth whom reject God and his ways nor can they see them, and there are wise ones whom accept and see God's ways for what they are. When the kingdom comes to earth to earth there will be a seperation, sheeps from goats, wheat from tares, wise virgins from unwise, good servant from bad, etc. When the kingdom arrives on earth, the wise ones will be allowed to enter, while the door will be shut on the foolish ones. The foolish ones are cast into hell. They do not understand the context of the kingdom, up until the Day of the Lord arrives. There is no second chances in this parable; when the bridegroom arrives it is over. Paradise on earth awaits the saints in the Millenial Reign, while hell awaits the wicked ones. It is that simple.


31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and


Once the night arrived, they were in darkness and could not see, just as we see in I Thes 5; we are not of the night that it should overtake us as a thief. We are of the day and have the Holy Spirit. Those whom vehemently argue and trust in a pre-tribulation rapture may be in danger of hell fire. It is better if you do not know the truth to not argue a concept or truth that is clearly not in scripture. For one to argue against God’s truth is to argue against the Comforter whom leads us in all truth; let’s not argue over what is so clear and obvious in scripture. They that sleep, sleep in the night. Let us who are of the day put on the breast plate of faith, and as a helmet our hope for salvation. For faith is the evidence of things not seen. Hope is our faith not seen but we know it shall come to pass.

The foolish virgins were cast into hell if you read the rest of the parable in its context. Even if you just read the parable of the virgins, common sense should tell you they did not make preparation to endure the timeframe in which the bridegroom would come, later than they expected. For such they ran out of oil. Does that make sense? If not we need to check our brains and make sure they are functioning properly here. The door was shut; it was too late to go to the wedding of the Lamb. The kingdom is already established when the wedding is in progress, we see that in Revelation 19 and 20 also.

With all that being said, scgraham is correct about two things. The foolish virgins do not have the Holy Ghost, while the wise ones do. Also he said we will be changed in the twinking of the eye. He just need to stay in context and by doing so, realize this does not equate or constitute a pretribulation rapture, but very obviously a post tribulation one.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-12-2009 at 02:33 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2009, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
396 posts, read 332,392 times
Reputation: 40
You are right, the coming of the LORD was POST-Tribulation. The TRIBULATION was first century, and the coming was first century, BEFORE THAT GENERATION PASSED (Matt.16:27-26, Matt.24:34). You are only OFF ABOUT 2000 Years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 903,801 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Proves a Post-Tribulation Return of Christ and Rapture of the Church As Does the Entire Chapter

I will prove the wedding shows a post-tribulation return and presents a big problem at the same time for the pre-tirbulation camp. Instead of this being helpful to dispensationalism and pre-tribulaitonism it is very harmful and presents many problems; they debunk the ideal or thought of pre-tribulationism. Any verses you can present as supportive to pre-tribulationism are always used in their terminologies to debunk the fallacy by meaingful, logical, reasonalbe interpretation of words from their original text. This can only mean it is heresy.

Matthew 25 (King James Version)

Matthew 25

1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
All I see is proof for the pre tribulational rapture because if no one knew the day nor the hour: how can the man of perdition with the world's army, arrange to meet the Lord to battle Him at the valley of Armegeddon? If halfway through the 7 year peace accord that the man of perdition is revealed, how hard is it to keep track of the dates to the Lord's return? Apparantly not that hard for the devil and his army to be ready to meet Him.

As judgment is to fall on the House of God first; this would pertain to the foolish virgins that were not ready, but yet, they did go to the market and had their lamps trimmed finally, but too late for they were not ready. How can any believer not be ready with such milestones that they have for the great tribulation?

Quote:
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Verse 30 refers to the same judgment falling on the House of God as stated by Jesus towards those that thought they were abiding in Him:

Luke 13: 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Verse 26-27 is hardly a response from those that worship the beast and have received the mark, and yet that judgment is clear, but it is the broadening of the way in the churches that false prophets have done that Jesus has to judge the House of God first at the pre tribulational rapture event.

Consider this: If Jesus comes back with the saints: then when was that judgment on the House of God when He is dealing with the devil and his army?

So for the last time: answer this question: when do you see this as happening?

1 Peter 4:17 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The following verses has Him sitting upon the throne of glory and so if we are not saved by works, then this judgment has to be on those after the milleniel reign of Christ when the devil and his angels are being dealt with as well.

It is presumptuous to assume that after the 1000 year reign of Christ, it is at that time that the rebellion will be put down swiftly. We do not know how long it will take the devil to mislead many and to gather his army against Jerusalem, but we do know he is set loose after 1000 years. So one has to wonder how God judges those coming out of society degradation which would occur after His milleniel reign... of prisons, hospitals, and such results of the devil being loose in the world.

Quote:
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
If by faith we are saved for the church to enter in as the chaste bride be of the first harvest:

If by keeping the faith and thereby not taking the mark of the beast that causes the saints coming out of the great tribulation to be partakers of that first resurrection....

Then I can see how the above standard of judgments are on those coming out after the rebellion of the devil has been finally put down at whatever time past the peaceful 1000 year reign of Christ.

So ask yourself this... if by grace we are saved by faith: then how can these verses 31-45 apply to the chaste bride? These people had to have been seeing Jesus Christ during their lifetime for that reward of faith to be voided because that is the other side of the coin as to why Jesus said.. blessed are they that have not seen Him, and yet believe.

So the first harvest is coming that will make up the Kingdom of God as it will at the judgment on the House of God first. That explains the vessels unto dishonour in God's House as the foolish virgins and the prodigal son.

The next two harvest will make up the whole of the kingdom of heaven... and so the Marriage Supper of the Lamb has to come before the great tribulation for it is that first harvest that sits with a meal.

Matthew 13: 33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

To whom God wills, He reveals that which is hidden.

Luke 12: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-12-2009, 08:00 PM
 
392 posts, read 307,714 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Enow said,

All I see is proof for the pre tribulational rapture because if no one knew the day nor the hour: how can the man of perdition with the world's army, arrange to meet the Lord to battle Him at the valley of Armegeddon? If halfway through the 7 year peace accord that the man of perdition is revealed, how hard is it to keep track of the dates to the Lord's return? Apparantly not that hard for the devil and his army to be ready to meet Him.



Gideon said Simple, we are instructed and commanded to watch; watch for what the signs of the season. Certainly no one will know the day or hour, but we had better know the season and prepare for it having our lamps filled with oil to endure the night. The night is falling, I have the works of the Father, doing is important but being is far more important; for unless we are what God would have us to be, our work is counted useless. The five foolish virgins are a perfect depiction of doing, but they were not what they should have been as the five wise were, and that being prepared to endure the night. They foolish were more concerned with spreading fear throughout the watches and telling people Jesus could come at any moment and people had better be prepared; i.e., giving all your money and resources to the church and doing what the spiritual leader deem necessary for the cause of Christ.

Megiddo has nothing to do with us watching. In I Thes we are told to watch and be sober. We are also told we will be troubled until the Lord Jesus is revealed in flaming fire taking vengeance on His enemies, who obey not the Gospel or our Lord Jesus Christ. This simply means we will suffer tribulation until the very end of the Great Tribulation, when Jesus is revealed. I Thes 1 also tells us we are not in darkness, as the unsaved, that the day of the Lord should overtake us as a thief. Are you calling Jesus and His servants liars; we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief. Maybe it will overtake you as a thief, but not us. What this means is we will not be taken by surprise. Paul then instructs us to watch and be sober. Watch for what? We are to watch for all the signs given to us by Christ the disciples, apostles, and Paul. Obedience to the Gospel is more than saying I believe in Jesus. The devils believe but show their true colors. Obedience to the Gospel is adhering the doctrines, precepts and teachings of the apostles, desciples, and our Christ. If one does not understand the teachings, they simply are in darkness. We see in Mathew 13: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.


38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39And this know, that if the Goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speaks thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42And the Lord said, who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.WHAT IS HE DOING? WATCHING FOR THE SINGS OF THE TIMES.
44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Many pre-tribulationists will think Christ has delayed his coming, when they come to the realization that he has not come in their timing. They become even more delusional and begin to oppress the good servant anyway they can.
46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Now here is the key, by this time we are well into the tribulation, and we know Jesus is coming real soon. We are being beat and persecuted by even what we thought were good servants, but they have turned on us and God. They begin to oppress us.
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
; we see we are told to watch everywhere in scripture. We are given the signs of His coming throughout scripture so we can know what they are. Pretribulationism can claim absolutely no signs, because they believe and have believed Jesus could have come any time after the ascension. Now in today's world they have changed their doctrine and try to tell us now something different, that the antichrist has to be revealed and the apostasy must occur. When Satan is revealed it will be too late for some of those pre-tribbers who are not saved. II Thes 2.

Quote:
Endow said,
Quote:
As judgment is to fall on the House of God first; this would pertain to the foolish virgins that were not ready, but yet, they did go to the market and had their lamps trimmed finally, but too late for they were not ready. How can any believer not be ready with such milestones that they have for the great tribulation?
Gideon said,
Give me a break, the foolish virgins are going to hell; that is the context of the parable and chapter; they are not saints that were not prepared and as a result were left behind to see Judgment of God. God's judgment during the tribulation is a fable; His judgment falls at the end of the GT. God's does not come until the end of the Great Tribulation, when he cast the 5 virgins in hell, the door is shut on them and they are not allowed to enter the kingdom. Clearly you are blinded to the context of this chapter and it lends you no favor. The context is set; two classes of people, one good one bad, one blind, one that can see, one filled with the Spirit, one which pretends, one that goes to hell one that does not, one that enters the kingdom and wedding, one that does not, etc. There is no pre-tribulation rapture here, and we have only begun to debunk it in this chapter.

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: The wise virgins are seperated from the foolish ones. We know what happens to them.
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Here is the core of the matter, right here. Since the separation is done and the judgment of God is set to separate the wise virgins from the unwise, the righteous from the unrighteous and put them in their places, this can only mean it is the end of the GT, when Christ judges the world. So there is very obviously no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture. Notice how they take verses out of context and ignore the actual context of the message. Hey there are two kinds of people God is coming to establish his kingdom at the end of the GT, and the wicked will be cast into hell, while the righteous begin to reign with Christ in the Millennium. It is that simple; we do not want to hear the heresies of Darby and Scofield.


Quote:
Enow said,
Quote:
If by faith we are saved for the church to enter in as the chaste bride be of the first harvest:


If by keeping the faith and thereby not taking the mark of the beast that causes the saints coming out of the great tribulation to be partakers of that first resurrection....

Then I can see how the above standard of judgments are on those coming out after the rebellion of the devil has been finally put down at whatever time past the peaceful 1000 year reign of Christ.

So ask yourself this... if by grace we are saved by faith: then how can these verses 31-45 apply to the chaste bride? These people had to have been seeing Jesus Christ during their lifetime for that reward of faith to be voided because that is the other side of the coin as to why Jesus said.. blessed are they that have not seen Him, and yet believe.

So the first harvest is coming that will make up the Kingdom of God as it will at the judgment on the House of God first. That explains the vessels unto dishonour in God's House as the foolish virgins and the prodigal son.

The next two harvest will make up the whole of the kingdom of heaven... and so the Marriage Supper of the Lamb has to come before the great tribulation for it is that first harvest that sits with a meal.

Matthew 13: 33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

To whom God wills, He reveals that which is hidden.

Luke 12: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Gideon said,

I like the way they attempt to put words in scripture that are not there. There is only one harvest. There is no first harvest, second harvest and third harvest. We see there are different watches, i.e... pretribulation, midtribulation, and post-tribulation return beliefs. There can only be one harvest as applicable in the rapture of the saints and return of Christ... The harvest comes at the end of the world; The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares gives us a clear depiction on that, as all the parables of the kingdom do, precisely. . They are harvested together when the Lord returns with his holy angels. The harvest of all men includes the harvest of the wicked tares and righteous wheat. The tares are thrown into the fire, while the wheat is placed in the barn. This is all in parallel with the other parables; there is not deviation here.

Enow does not get it, all these verses and parables apply to the bride, and she by no means is chaste today, IMHO, by God's standards. Only the fires of persecution can do that. He, Enow, says blessed are they whom have not seen but yet believe; believe what? Are you telling us we should believe a phony pre-tribulation rapture, created by Darby and Scofield? Give us a break. You are even taking this specific verse out of context; give it a rest. You are misconstruing the applications of God's words to incorrect subjects.

Once again, there is one harvest. He misapplies the verses that talk about the three watches, pre, mid, and post-tribulation. There are three basic groups of folks watching for the Lord's return and that is all scripture is telling us. It is not saying Jesus is coming the second time, three times. Now that in and of itself does not make sense. Enow confuses the three watches for three comings or harvest of dead saints. I have heard of two and four before by pre-tribbers but never 3. We see if the goodman would have been able to watch in what watch the Lord was coming in, he would not have suffered loss. This verse settles it for us, though there be three shifts of watch: 8 hours typically in our standard of work, For spiritual purposes it is the pre-, mid-, and post-tribulation watches, though there be three watches Christ only comes back once in one of those three watches, post.. We had better know what to watch for and what watch our Lord is returning in; if you do not ask God to show you. He will. Do not take my words for it; be a Berean and search the scriptures for truth. So the goodman was not watching and suffered loss in his house. He was not ready when the Lord of the Harvest returned at the end. He knew not what watch he would return in. The thief is Christ coming to those in darkness as a thief in the night. They will be lost unable to see or understand the timing of His return and what watch it will be in. Therefore watch.


42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. What is he doing, the blessed servant is watching what his Lord told him to watch for. The fact that we confirm three watches today proves we have three watches and that Jesus will only come in one of them.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-12-2009 at 08:18 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top