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Old 12-16-2009, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,197,002 times
Reputation: 401
To me the issue really is this, people that believe Jesus is not God are getting caught in putting limitations on God, and saying that He cannot do this, and that it would be impossible for Him to do anything of the sort. He is God, and He breathed life into man, He created the Heavens and Earth;

So why would it be impossible for Him to manifest Himself into a man, and become the savior of mankind, exactly the way His prophets predicted, and be that very savior that He professed Himself to be the only one capable of being such?

i appears that those that deny this event, are getting caught up in their own circular argument.

 
Old 12-17-2009, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 611,131 times
Reputation: 163
[quote=katjonjj;12061760]I was reading and came across this: Mark 12:28-34

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?


“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
[Deut. 6:4,5]The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ [Lev. 19:18]
There is no commandment greater than these.”


“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”


This is so simple. Jesus is not God. The teacher is close to the Kingdom because....drum roll... HE GETS IT!!! He needs to pray to God earnestly for his love (Holy Spirit).....this is something man has to strive for and take time for each and every day of his life and thereafter! It is as SIMPLE as that. As with obeying this very commandment and loving God (not Jesus) your soul will fill up....and the more earnestly you seek God the less likely you are to sin. We are not perfect...and we live in the conditions of this earth. When we sin....what shall we do.....we shall pray to God earnestly and repent.

Many today worship the man "Jesus" as God. But, I do not believe that was Jesus' intent or his message. Jesus always pointed to his "heavenly Father" as his source of direction, and accepted himself as being a "son of God." All of us are sons/daughters of God.

Exodus 34:14 "Worship no other god."
Deuteronomy 8:19 if you, "follow other gods and serve them and worship them...you shall surely
perish."

What are false idols..."other gods?" The phrase other gods simply refers to "wrong beliefs," or "beliefs contrary to the truth." Jeremiah 13:10 proclaims that, "the worship of other gods (or untruths, wrong thoughts/beliefs) are unprofitable." An idol is something that replaces who God really is...Spirit. It is religion, and it stands in place of and in the way of the truth, which is Spirit.
To merely worship a god, a "false idol," is simply to be mistaken in one's beliefs. Beliefs can change, as they are mistakes....forgivable errors in understanding. But, false beliefs still can be unprofitable...even hurtful to a person because of the fearful, emotional bondage that can be created, most often through religion. Untruths create God as being something different than what the Divine Spirit is; even one to be feared. So, who and how do we worship? Should we worship Jesus?

Isaiah 66:23 "All flesh shall come to worship before me."
Psalm 86:9 "All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you..."
Psalm 95:6 ..."let us kneel before the Lord our maker."

These verses of scripture show that worship is an invitation unto all. All will come to God...Truth and leave false beliefs behind. Hence, all will be saved, which is to say that all will eventually know the truth concerning Spirit, "For all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."


Maybe it is time for us to re-examine our beliefs and search for Jesus' true message. If
we simply search for truth, then we will know his true message...
 
Old 12-17-2009, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,072,249 times
Reputation: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and consequently divine, born of the Holy Spirit, the firstborn from the dead ---- When was he begotten of God?


Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

It seems to me that Jesus the man was begotten of God at his resurrection.

He is uniquely Gods Son, we will be raised through Jesus Christ - he is the head, we are the body -- we will be sons/daughters of God through Jesus, The Christ.
Hmmm...that actually happened at his Baptism....that is when God declared Jesus His Son.
 
Old 12-17-2009, 05:48 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,072,249 times
Reputation: 776
[quote=SisterKat;12061990]
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I was reading and came across this: Mark 12:28-34

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?


“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
[Deut. 6:4,5]The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ [Lev. 19:18]
There is no commandment greater than these.”


“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”


This is so simple. Jesus is not God. The teacher is close to the Kingdom because....drum roll... HE GETS IT!!! He needs to pray to God earnestly for his love (Holy Spirit).....this is something man has to strive for and take time for each and every day of his life and thereafter! It is as SIMPLE as that. As with obeying this very commandment and loving God (not Jesus) your soul will fill up....and the more earnestly you seek God the less likely you are to sin. We are not perfect...and we live in the conditions of this earth. When we sin....what shall we do.....we shall pray to God earnestly and repent.

Many today worship the man "Jesus" as God. But, I do not believe that was Jesus' intent or his message. Jesus always pointed to his "heavenly Father" as his source of direction, and accepted himself as being a "son of God." All of us are sons/daughters of God.

Exodus 34:14 "Worship no other god."
Deuteronomy 8:19 if you, "follow other gods and serve them and worship them...you shall surely
perish."

What are false idols..."other gods?" The phrase other gods simply refers to "wrong beliefs," or "beliefs contrary to the truth." Jeremiah 13:10 proclaims that, "the worship of other gods (or untruths, wrong thoughts/beliefs) are unprofitable." An idol is something that replaces who God really is...Spirit. It is religion, and it stands in place of and in the way of the truth, which is Spirit.
To merely worship a god, a "false idol," is simply to be mistaken in one's beliefs. Beliefs can change, as they are mistakes....forgivable errors in understanding. But, false beliefs still can be unprofitable...even hurtful to a person because of the fearful, emotional bondage that can be created, most often through religion. Untruths create God as being something different than what the Divine Spirit is; even one to be feared. So, who and how do we worship? Should we worship Jesus?

Isaiah 66:23 "All flesh shall come to worship before me."
Psalm 86:9 "All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you..."
Psalm 95:6 ..."let us kneel before the Lord our maker."

These verses of scripture show that worship is an invitation unto all. All will come to God...Truth and leave false beliefs behind. Hence, all will be saved, which is to say that all will eventually know the truth concerning Spirit, "For all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."

Maybe it is time for us to re-examine our beliefs and search for Jesus' true message. If
we simply search for truth, then we will know his true message...
I still can't rep you.....AWESOME post!!
 
Old 12-17-2009, 11:50 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,128,592 times
Reputation: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Hmmm...that actually happened at his Baptism....that is when God declared Jesus His Son.
Christy - How is Jesus Gods Son? When the Spirit descended and the voice spoke saying this is my Son do you think that is the point that Jesus was "begotten"? begotten is being born.

To my mind either it would have to be at his physical birth and he was a God/ man in the same body - but to me that does not make sense - we are told that he was made of the flesh and of the seed of David.

I believe that at the baptism it was the promise of God to Jesus of what was to come.

It is the same for us - we have the promise of being Sons and daughters of God, this promise is spoken of as being a fact even though we are not yet resurrected - if we believe and have life now - we never die.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
Old 12-17-2009, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,072,249 times
Reputation: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Christy - How is Jesus Gods Son? When the Spirit descended and the voice spoke saying this is my Son do you think that is the point that Jesus was "begotten"? begotten is being born.
Yes....that is the point where Jesus was fully indwelt by the Spirit of God....was "born again"....just like us.

Being sons and daughters is a promise but the evidence that we are sons and daughters of God is by the Spirit dwelling in us....at least that is the way I read it.

When do you believe you become Gods daughter?
 
Old 12-17-2009, 12:29 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,259,469 times
Reputation: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Heart For God View Post
Beloved, as you I love the advanced hyper-dimensional theorems... and for ages man has been attempting to quantify and qualify with his finite mind what only God can, and did accomplish in the Godhead...Explain Who He was, Who He sent, and Why He needed to come in the form of the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But I disagee that God the Father is Jesus outside of time.. and God the Son is Jesus incarnate and manifest in time; for both were both, and together, both outside of time and creation, as well as inside time and creation. A thorough examination of John chapters 14-17 will show this, and give an account that God the Father and Jesus, God the Son, were one since the beginning. (Jn 1:1-3,14; 17:5,11,22; 8:24). The Divine operandi of God was manifested in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, for whom we who know and love Him will be eternally gratefull for!

Well then we must agree to disagree ... I understand that God is one. There is only one God, and he is Christ. Though i believe that Christ Jesus manifests in various states. Outside of time in his eternal abode he is the father, incarnate as a man he is the son, and his omnipresent power throughout creation is the holy spirit. I also believe by the power of his spirit indwelling us and manifest through the angels, that the creation are various permutations of deity.

I imagine the God is like a beam of light ... When he sent forth his spirit into the world and manifested his will through the incarnation of Christ, it was like a beam of light which passes through a prism. All the sudden that one white beam of light is split into many colors and separate beams of light that shine in multiple directions all at once. It is the same light that shines, but divided into many parts. Perhaps i am wrong about this, but this is how i have come to understand the abstraction of one God, many forms.

http://www.phy.duke.edu/%7Ehsg/54/table-images/light-through-prism.jpg (broken link)

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-17-2009 at 12:40 PM..
 
Old 12-17-2009, 01:00 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,128,592 times
Reputation: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Yes....that is the point where Jesus was fully indwelt by the Spirit of God....was "born again"....just like us.

Being sons and daughters is a promise but the evidence that we are sons and daughters of God is by the Spirit dwelling in us....at least that is the way I read it.

When do you believe you become Gods daughter?

I guess I view it like the birth of a baby - the embryo becomes the fetus, becomes the baby which is seen, to me the birth is when we are resurrected in the Spirit.

In scripture we are told of remnants and seeds

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


While we are in the flesh we are in the body of sin
 
Old 12-17-2009, 01:25 PM
 
22,849 posts, read 10,714,584 times
Reputation: 3850
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I was reading and came across this: Mark 12:28-34

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?


“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
[Deut. 6:4,5]The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ [Lev. 19:18]
There is no commandment greater than these.”


“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”


When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”


And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Do you think Jesus is affirming he is God here or denying it?

More in line with the OP...does this state that we must believe Jesus is God, or that God is ONE - The number one... single, lone, one.
Kat,

Your depth of scholarship is evident and your discourse has brought out the best scholarship of Ironmaw, Spm, Sciota, Mike, Meerkat, Enow, Shiloh, and others in very interesting and encouraging debates. The only problem with depth is that as you go deeper into the forest all you can see are the trees . . . not the forest. Your excellent scholarship and interpretation has also brought out the best breadth of reasoning and interpretations from HotinAz, Christy, Pcamps, Sparrow, Dipidydoodaa, Legoman, and others who have been trying to place the entire spiritual milieu into a context from God's point of view (Forest) . . . not man's carnal and worldly one. It is the forest that determines what all the growth is about . . . not the concerns of the trees.

From the standpoint of God there is only one access for humans . . . the mind of Christ. It hardly matters whether you consider Him just the Son of God or some mysterious combination in the One God . . . the access is the same. Since worship has naught to do with God's ego (or Jesus's) because it is for our spiritual centering . . . it makes no difference whatsoever. The whole God is jealous nonsense is primitive claptrap. There IS only ONE God . . . of whom could He possibly be jealous??
 
Old 12-17-2009, 01:51 PM
 
2,942 posts, read 3,136,659 times
Reputation: 1551
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Kat,
From the standpoint of God there is only one access for humans . . . the mind of Christ. It hardly matters whether you consider Him just the Son of God or some mysterious combination in the One God . . . the access is the same. Since worship has naught to do with God's ego (or Jesus's) because it is for our spiritual centering . . . it makes no difference whatsoever. The whole God is jealous nonsense is primitive claptrap. There IS only ONE God . . . of whom could He possibly be jealous??
Excellent points Mystic.. I learn a lot from you,kat,and iron. You guys have really help me to think about things and delve deeper into the things of God. Thanks to all of you guys for your insight and deep study of scripture.
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