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Old 12-18-2009, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
If that is the case.....what SACRIFICE was made? God cannot die...so based on what you've said....there was no real sacrifice made for anyone and it belittles what Jesus sacrificed for us....his very life.
Sacrifice for sins...God is the only savior for mankind. Yes God can do anything, why do you non-deists continue to minimize what God can and cannot do?

 
Old 12-18-2009, 12:55 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,728,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sacrifice for sins...God is the only savior for mankind. Yes God can do anything, why do you non-deists continue to minimize what God can and cannot do?
Yes--and this includes coming to earth as Jesus Christ who was both "true God and true man." The part of Him that was mortal did indeed die on Calvary.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,775,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sacrifice for sins...God is the only savior for mankind. Yes God can do anything, why do you non-deists continue to minimize what God can and cannot do?
Was the sacrifice that was made my Jesus not his DEATH...his shed blood and his DEATH??? Did he not DIE for our sins????

Hence the question I posted, which was not answered:

If that is the case.....what SACRIFICE was made? God cannot die...so based on what you've said....there was no real sacrifice made for anyone and it belittles what Jesus sacrificed for us....his very life.

If Jesus is God, as you purport, there was no real death....because GOD can't die. So what sacrifice was made?
 
Old 12-18-2009, 01:27 PM
 
3,225 posts, read 154,871 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I am sorry...I didn't catch that.

Instead of regurgitating what I would already say, I will point you to these sites, which sums it up pretty well, and saves me the typing There are plenty of verses to read in parallel with this, but if you have any questions, please, don't hesitate to ask.

What is the difference between spirit and soul?
The triple Nature of man: Body, Spirit & Soul
Can we see how that applies to this section of scripture which says that there is a distinction between the natural body (soul) i.e. not the physical flesh - that which is sown, and the spiritual body.

It seems to me that the natural body mentioned is the soul that we receive upon being naturally born through Adam and that it is not quickened unless it dies, and that happens through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus baptism of death (not referring to our physical flesh and blood body) and resurrection.

I believe that the second death refers to that death (the death of the soul) and resurrection is the quickening by the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Ther is a distinction between the natural body G5591
ψυχικός psuchikos psoo-khee-kos'

and the spiritual body G4152 πνευματικός pneumatikos phyoo-mat-ik-os'

Just a comment on something said in that website - if the soul and spirit are the same and the spirit we receive is eternal - it would not be able to die - eternal means with out end .......... and if something dies it is not eternal.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 01:29 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,709,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
"MOST CONSERVATIVE BIBLE SCHOLARS AGREE THAT THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH THAT IS USED OFTEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS CHRIST."

Herein is your first problem.....did God reveal this to you or do you just take the word of men? I prefer to let the Spirit lead me into ALL TRUTH.

It's easy to confuse the "worship" Jesus received as The Messiah vs. worshipping him as GOD. I can't find any scripture where Jesus was worshipped as GOD....this would be idolatry. Jesus is praised, honored and worthy for the great sacrifice he made for us....but God gets the glory for our salvation. GOD is the one who provided the sacrifice of Jesus for us.
Jhn 20:25-28
25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Jhn 1:1-5
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jhn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


The fact is all these scritpures speak of Jesus being God. He is god who became flesh and dwelt among us. Anyone who ignores these passages must admit they are there at least, even if you choose not to believe they are true.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-18-2009 at 02:37 PM..
 
Old 12-18-2009, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,775,359 times
Reputation: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The fact is all these scritpures speak of Jesus being God. He is god who became flesh and dwelt among us. Anyone who ignores these passages must admit they are there at least, even if you choose not to believe they are true.
Can you answer this question since it keeps being skirted by others:

Was the sacrifice that was made my Jesus not his DEATH...his shed blood and his DEATH??? Did he not DIE for our sins????

Hence the question I posted, which was not answered:

If that is the case.....what SACRIFICE was made? God cannot die...so based on what you've said....there was no real sacrifice made for anyone and it belittles what Jesus sacrificed for us....his very life.

If Jesus is God, as you purport, there was no real death....because GOD can't die. So what sacrifice was made?
 
Old 12-18-2009, 01:44 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,728,776 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Can you answer this question since it keeps being skirted by others:

Was the sacrifice that was made my Jesus not his DEATH...his shed blood and his DEATH??? Did he not DIE for our sins????

Hence the question I posted, which was not answered:

If that is the case.....what SACRIFICE was made? God cannot die...so based on what you've said....there was no real sacrifice made for anyone and it belittles what Jesus sacrificed for us....his very life.

If Jesus is God, as you purport, there was no real death....because GOD can't die. So what sacrifice was made?
Jesus was "true God and true man." Because man is mortal, the part of His nature that was "true man," and only that part, did indeed die.

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about that. I've understood it since third or fourth grade. I guess you weren't taught by the nuns as a child?
 
Old 12-18-2009, 01:56 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,709,825 times
Reputation: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Can you answer this question since it keeps being skirted by others:

Was the sacrifice that was made my Jesus not his DEATH...his shed blood and his DEATH??? Did he not DIE for our sins????

Hence the question I posted, which was not answered:

If that is the case.....what SACRIFICE was made? God cannot die...so based on what you've said....there was no real sacrifice made for anyone and it belittles what Jesus sacrificed for us....his very life.

If Jesus is God, as you purport, there was no real death....because GOD can't die. So what sacrifice was made?

Why do people always say that God cannot do this, or God cannot do that? If there is anything God cant do, then he is not really God is he?


All things are possible unto God. God can be God outside of time and never die, and can also become a man and dwell in time and die the death of a man, while yet remaining outside of time and not dying. This is possible for God. Just like the creation of the universe out of nothing. Just like the salvation of all creation even of those that do not believe in him before they die. Just because you cant understand how he does these things doesnt mean God cant do it.

Your arguing that it is impossible for God to become a man and die is to me as irrelevant and unscriptural as the fundamentalist argument that God cant save every person including Satan and his fallen angels. God can and will do whatever he desires. The bible said the word was God, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us humans. The bible says that Jesus is the word. The bible says that Jesus is Emmanuel, which means God with us.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-18-2009 at 02:19 PM..
 
Old 12-18-2009, 02:16 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,709,825 times
Reputation: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Can you answer this question since it keeps being skirted by others:

Was the sacrifice that was made my Jesus not his DEATH...his shed blood and his DEATH??? Did he not DIE for our sins????

Hence the question I posted, which was not answered:

If that is the case.....what SACRIFICE was made? God cannot die...so based on what you've said....there was no real sacrifice made for anyone and it belittles what Jesus sacrificed for us....his very life.

If Jesus is God, as you purport, there was no real death....because GOD can't die. So what sacrifice was made?

Job 38:1-41
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Can you answer how God did all these things? Where you there? Just because you don't understand does it mean that God cant do them or that he is lying?

You and i, we are human only, beside the spirit of our lord be within us. We cannot do or know any of these things. But there is one who can, and that is the man who is God, Jesus Christ. Who commanded the storm, who conquered death, who healed the sick and cast out demons by the shadow of his person. He is Emmanuel, he is God with us. He is the word made flesh. He is the mighty God, and the father of the ages. All things were created by him and for him, and the fullness of all things is in him.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 02:18 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,709,825 times
Reputation: 888
If God can become a whirlwind, or a cloud of fire and smoke ... God can and did become a man and did dwell among us.
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