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Old 12-19-2009, 10:28 AM
 
Location: US
22,813 posts, read 11,588,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
You can't be Christian, unless you really believe in His deity, that is what separates Christianity from all the other religions that acknowledge His prophetic nature....like Islam and Judaism, they recognize Jesus, even agree with some or most of His teachings, but they don't regard Him as Deity. This is where the line is drawn. Just like the JW, are not a part of the church, the Christian church, whether they think they are or not, they aren't. Believing in His divinity is what makes us "Christians".

I have seen this remark made on several threads...that one has to believe Jesus is GOD to be a Christian.

I would like anyone to please provide just one scripture that says I, or anyone else for that matter, has to believe Jesus is God in order to be considered a Christian (Christ Follower).....just one.
If you believe in Scripture, you will discover that He is God in the flesh:

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word Was God.
John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

When you read this from a believer's standpoint, you realize that Jesus is God in the flesh.

Also, i point out...John 1:3 - all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened - Young's Literal Translation, 1898

In this literal translation we see that the author was saying that nothing happened as opposed to most people believe, after having read most translations, as having made or created, but the actual Greek word is
G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

This would not only encompass the created things but also the personality, comings and goings and events of all things.

 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 996,580 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
You can't be Christian, unless you really believe in His deity, that is what separates Christianity from all the other religions that acknowledge His prophetic nature....like Islam and Judaism, they recognize Jesus, even agree with some or most of His teachings, but they don't regard Him as Deity. This is where the line is drawn. Just like the JW, are not a part of the church, the Christian church, whether they think they are or not, they aren't. Believing in His divinity is what makes us "Christians".

I have seen this remark made on several threads...that one has to believe Jesus is GOD to be a Christian.

I would like anyone to please provide just one scripture that says I, or anyone else for that matter, has to believe Jesus is God in order to be considered a Christian (Christ Follower).....just one.

Christygrl.....I do apologize that no one has been able to answer your question. But I can. You are a beloved Christian Christygrl.

They say that if we deny Jesus, then we deny the father. Here is what they don’t understand. We accept Jesus for what Jesus & the bible taught: The Messiah & Son of God. How in the world is that denying him?

Nowhere in the bible does it say we must believe Jesus is God. NOWHERE! In fact, it says all we have to believe is that he is the Son of God & Messiah. In fact, Jesus asked Simon Peter who he thought he was. He replied, I think you are the Messiah & Son of the Living God. This made Jesus HAPPY! There is no mention of Jesus being God in any of this.

Jesus wanted everyone to believe he was the Messiah, the Son of God. Nothing more, nothing less. SOME try to claim that if you doubt the trinity or that Jesus=God, you somehow deny Jesus. Huh? I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord, Messiah, Savior, Sacrifice, Son of God, Son of Man, and everything else he said. How is that denying Jesus? Show me where it says that if you don’t accept him as GOD, you are denying him…The only thing I deny is a man-made doctrine that tries to make Jesus into a God the Father.

That is like saying that if you don’t believe Moses is God, you are denying him. It makes no sense because Moses didn’t say he was God. Why should I believe that? But I do accept Moses, I just don’t accept he was God. I also follow, believe in, accept, cherish, and love the Messiah & Son of God. But I don’t believe he is God for the same reason I don’t think Abraham or Moses was God….The bible doesn’t teach it!

Remember what God said about holding anyone above Him? It is called Idolatry, and he doesn’t like it very much.
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:41 AM
 
Location: US
22,813 posts, read 11,588,754 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I didn't ask for man's doctrine on the issue.....I asked for scripture. It's been stated many times on these threads, by various people, that one has to believe Jesus is God in order to be a Christian (Christ Follower).

Please provide scripture for this issue.
One does not have to believe in the Deity of Christ to be a Christian, However, there are many who profess Christianity that do not believe in the Deity of Christ, such as the Jehovah's Witness's...But, as it says in

Romans 10:9 - that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 - for with the heart doth one believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation.

When one becomes a believer as stated above, one will discover that Chist is God in the flesh and believe it. Here inn John Chapter 1 it is more than implied...I would say the difference between a true believer and one who professes Christianity on there own terms is belief in the Deity of Christ...but, this is only discovered through conversations with the proffessor as to whether they posess true faith or faith in vain...
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 996,580 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
If you believe in Scripture, you will discover that He is God in the flesh:

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word Was God.
John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

When you read this from a believer's standpoint, you realize that Jesus is God in the flesh.

Also, i point out...John 1:3 - all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened - Young's Literal Translation, 1898

In this literal translation we see that the author was saying that nothing happened as opposed to most people believe, after having read most translations, as having made or created, but the actual Greek word is
G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

This would not only encompass the created things but also the personality, comings and goings and events of all things.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Okay, first let me point out the obvious to your theory. If “he” was with God in the beginning, how do you explain that? God was with himself in the beginning? It clearly shows a distiction between the two right here in black & white.
Was he still praying to himself at this point? Why would a “Manifestation” be with God in the beginning? If Jesus was simply a manifestation of God to us humans, why is he hanging around with God even in the beginning? Was the burning bush, whirlwind, etc. also with God in the beginning? Those were manifestations? You have yet to provide any logical answer to any of these questions. Again, this verse hurts your argument worse than it does mine, and I will show you why.
The Greek in this verse uses 2 different words for “The God”, and “God” in this very same passage. Here is the original Greek:
“En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos”
Theos is the word meaning “God.” It says ton theon which means “The God” and then theos which literally means “a god/divine; resembling God, being of similar nature.” Isn’t it a bit strange how it doesn’t use the definite article ‘the’ before the other God. It is making a clear distinction between “The God” and a “god” or a “divine” creature. This actually helps my argument by proving the following:
  1. It makes distinction by calling The God Almighty ton theon, and Jesus Christ (son of God) Theos. It even goes on to say, “He was with Him in the beginning.” Jesus was with God. Not, “God was with God in the beginning. That would make no sense!
  2. It shows Jesus was pre-existant before becoming flesh. You can’t explain why that would be if Jesus=God. Again, this verse helps my case that Jesus was created spiritually before coming to Earth, and exists distinctly from God after his ascention, which up to this point, you deny to maintain your stance that Jesus is merely a manifestation of God.
This is the true Greek right here, and any scholar will tell you the same thing. Even people who try to defend this passage can’t deny the truth of the translation.
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:43 AM
 
Location: US
22,813 posts, read 11,588,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I believe that the Word - who was God - became flesh.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14 and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
That is two of us that have pointed that out...Do we have a third witness?
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:46 AM
 
Location: US
22,813 posts, read 11,588,754 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is the scripture that resolves it for me also, little elmer . . . although the underlined part always seems to be ignored or misinterpreted by the magic believers. Jesus was entirely HUMAN before He elevated His consciousness to PERFECTLY RESONATE with God and become ONE and the same. It is a little detail that is rejected . . . and completely negates the whole point of Jesus's life and example. God being godly and acting godly and enduring suffering in a godly way is completely pointless. OF COURSE God could do all that. So What? What could possibly be the implications and importance of all that for US? . . . NONE.

That Jesus AS A HUMAN did those things is significant for us. It establishes a direction for our soul's development . . . something to aspire to . . . and a safe haven from which to do so in His love for us all.
Could this be our third witness?
 
Old 12-19-2009, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,962,741 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Ahh umm ...... Christy started this thread .......
LOL...she did didn't she...too many threads...too many posts...cross posting
 
Old 12-19-2009, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,962,741 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Does Jesus tell the disciples to be one as he and the Father are one?
Are peter,james,john,matthew,etc. the same person?
You have to look at all of scripture scio. You can`t pluck one verse and then make it mean what you want it to mean. That`s christianity 101.
I hope that clears it up for you. What other scripture do you need help with?

LOL...scripture check again...what is the context of the verse?

Your example is straw man. check again.
Do you need some more help SPM2?

I am always here.
 
Old 12-19-2009, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,791,179 times
Reputation: 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Okay, first let me point out the obvious to your theory. If “he” was with God in the beginning, how do you explain that? God was with himself in the beginning? It clearly shows a distiction between the two right here in black & white.
Was he still praying to himself at this point? Why would a “Manifestation” be with God in the beginning? If Jesus was simply a manifestation of God to us humans, why is he hanging around with God even in the beginning? Was the burning bush, whirlwind, etc. also with God in the beginning? Those were manifestations? You have yet to provide any logical answer to any of these questions. Again, this verse hurts your argument worse than it does mine, and I will show you why.
The Greek in this verse uses 2 different words for “The God”, and “God” in this very same passage. Here is the original Greek:
“En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos”
Theos is the word meaning “God.” It says ton theon which means “The God” and then theos which literally means “a god/divine; resembling God, being of similar nature.” Isn’t it a bit strange how it doesn’t use the definite article ‘the’ before the other God. It is making a clear distinction between “The God” and a “god” or a “divine” creature. This actually helps my argument by proving the following:
  1. It makes distinction by calling The God Almighty ton theon, and Jesus Christ (son of God) Theos. It even goes on to say, “He was with Him in the beginning.” Jesus was with God. Not, “God was with God in the beginning. That would make no sense!
  2. It shows Jesus was pre-existant before becoming flesh. You can’t explain why that would be if Jesus=God. Again, this verse helps my case that Jesus was created spiritually before coming to Earth, and exists distinctly from God after his ascention, which up to this point, you deny to maintain your stance that Jesus is merely a manifestation of God.
This is the true Greek right here, and any scholar will tell you the same thing. Even people who try to defend this passage can’t deny the truth of the translation.
The other problem (for some people's translation anyway) with John 1:1 is the word translated as was.
ēn is not just past tense. In modern English, was means that something is done in the past. In Greek this word ēn is a word picture. It is the imperfect active of eimi which means I exist or I. So the picture in this verse is not that one time action of the word but a continual one or repeating event.

It paints the picture that The Word was, is, has been, and will be with God, exists as a from God. The word can also mean agree, be, have charge of, hold, use. God is the subject to which the word agrees with, and is.

Now this Word is the spoken word logos. Jesus spoke the word of God.
God spoke the word when he created the heavens and earth. So the word or logos is Gods word. Now none of us thinks that Jesus was a spoken word literally, but we can also agree that Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Jeremiah, etc. spoke the word of God.

The word of God is designated with the pronoun "he" in the next 2 verses which is terribly misleading. A spoken word is genderless. In verse two outos is translated he.. it should read "the same."
In verse three, the pronoun used better fits God as the subject.. or rather God's spoken word.

Anyway.. then John starts talking about John the baptist as witness to the word or light.

Jesus spoke the word of God. Of that there is no doubt... however he was not the Word. That is an impossibility. The word of God comes from God and is not separate from God, just as the holy spirit of God comes from God and is not separate from God. If you really want to put together a trinity of sorts.. the word, the spirit, and God are one but three manifestations. Jesus is not a manifestation of God in the flesh but a manifestation of the spoken word in the flesh. The word, not Jesus, existed with God.

Now isn't that more sensible then thinking that God came down and took over a human body?
 
Old 12-19-2009, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,962,741 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I can assure that I have been "quickened" already so your statement has been proved totally FALSE as far as God is concerned and as far as I am concerned. It was God who led me to this belief and confirms it the more I study. His revelation is the TRUTH and that is the one I will stick with. I may be outside of mans definition of the faith but I am definitely not outside of Gods....which do you think is more relevant?
Quickened by what?

Believe Christ is God, your quickening will be complete.
You're only half way there.
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