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Old 12-15-2009, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 5,420,888 times
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Default The New Jerusalem: Foundation 12 Apostles Names

The Book of Revelation describes a new heaven and a new earth, and a (new) Jerusalem. The wall of the city has 12 foundations, with the names of the 12 Apostles written on them. We pretty much know what the names of eleven of them are, but who's name is written on the 12th? Is it Judas Iscariot????? Or Matthias (who replaced Judas) ?????

(See Rev 12:10-14, and Acts 1:15-26) Wouldn't Matthias be considered the 13th apostle, therefore not one of the original 12? On the other hand, considering what Judas did, how can his name be judged worthy to be written on a foundation stone in heaven???

Your thoughts?


Bud
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
The Book of Revelation describes a new heaven and a new earth, and a (new) Jerusalem. The wall of the city has 12 foundations, with the names of the 12 Apostles written on them. We pretty much know what the names of eleven of them are, but who's name is written on the 12th? Is it Judas Iscariot????? Or Matthias (who replaced Judas) ?????

(See Rev 12:10-14, and Acts 1:15-26) Wouldn't Matthias be considered the 13th apostle, therefore not one of the original 12? On the other hand, considering what Judas did, how can his name be judged worthy to be written on a foundation stone in heaven???

Your thoughts?


Bud
I would imagine it would be Paul as the 12th....keep in mind the other was elected by lot and not by God.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,958 posts, read 3,398,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
The Book of Revelation describes a new heaven and a new earth, and a (new) Jerusalem. The wall of the city has 12 foundations, with the names of the 12 Apostles written on them. We pretty much know what the names of eleven of them are, but who's name is written on the 12th? Is it Judas Iscariot????? Or Matthias (who replaced Judas) ?????

(See Rev 12:10-14, and Acts 1:15-26) Wouldn't Matthias be considered the 13th apostle, therefore not one of the original 12? On the other hand, considering what Judas did, how can his name be judged worthy to be written on a foundation stone in heaven???

Your thoughts?


Bud
Only 12 it's Paul. God never recognized Matthias that was a decision by Man not God.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:59 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Matthias would be considered the one to replace Judas.

I know that the position was filled by casting lot, but let us consider something first:

This was before the Day of Pentecost: now after receiving the promise of the Spirit by Jesus Christ, if Matthias was not recognized by God and what they had done was in need of correction: do you really believe God would ignore that after empowering them in such a manner to serve Him?

Does anyone think that after sending the word to the churches.. the word of knowledge .... word of prophesy... tongues that comes with interpretation... that God never corrected the disciples as to who was to fill that slot?

If Jesus taught to correct a brother in a trespass, would He not also?

Matthias is the 12th as in being the replacement.. not the 13th, for Judas was lost to fulfill the prophecy.

John 13: 17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. 19Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

John 17: 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I believe the disciples did not do anything wrong by replacing Judas by casting lot. Matthias remained in that position to serve Him. If the Lord had decided to make His will known otherwise, then that divine correction would have been written.
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
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Understandable. However, I too do not believe there would be a 13th Apostle. There are many things that we would consider objectionable that God did not correct like polygamy in the OT or When Paul cut his hair and took a vow under pressure from the legalistic James.

Obviously, a 13th Apostle would be wrong in God's number count and because the future plans do not include such. However, Paul was called by Jesus and is called an Apostle. Moreover, his ministry was huge and reflected a great commission by God for that work, and would be deemed for none but an Apostle.

I believe the Apostles rushed to fill the position without waiting on God. And that Paul is the 12th Apostle and the true replacement of Judas.

Now, having said that, this would be a very minor issue and need not divide us.

Amen?
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
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In the King James Version, it states they were called disciples. Paul (writer of most books of the New Testament) called himself an Apostle of Christ. I guess I'm just wondering what the difference is b/t a disciple and apostle. Anyone know?
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:39 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,665,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
The Book of Revelation describes a new heaven and a new earth, and a (new) Jerusalem. The wall of the city has 12 foundations, with the names of the 12 Apostles written on them. We pretty much know what the names of eleven of them are, but who's name is written on the 12th? Is it Judas Iscariot????? Or Matthias (who replaced Judas) ?????

(See Rev 12:10-14, and Acts 1:15-26) Wouldn't Matthias be considered the 13th apostle, therefore not one of the original 12? On the other hand, considering what Judas did, how can his name be judged worthy to be written on a foundation stone in heaven???

Your thoughts?


Bud
The Holy Spirit blotted Judas out of the Book of Life. Matthias was elected to take his place.

It would have been better for Judas if he had never been born.
Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. ----
Jesus was speaking from Enoch, there, applying that passage in Enoch to Judas:
Quote:
Enoch 38
38 The first Parable.
When the congregation of the righteous shall appear,
And sinners shall be judged for their sins,
And shall be driven from the face of the earth:
2And when the Righteous One shall appear before the eyes of the righteous,
Whose elect works hang upon the Lord of Spirits,
And light shall appear to the righteous and the elect who dwell on the earth,
Where then will be the dwelling of the sinners,
And where the resting-place of those who have denied the Lord of Spirits?
It had been good for them if they had not been born.
The Holy Spirit revealed to the Apostles that Matthias was Judas replacement, who, having been with the LORD from the first -one of the seventy- he was also an eyewitness of Jesus life and Gospel.

Psalm 109 is about the treachery of the treacherous against the righteous, and Peter applied that to Judas "let his days be few, and let another take his office ["bishopric", in Acts].
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; [and] let another take his office.
Also, Peter applied Psalm 69 to Judas, in Acts
Psa 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; [and] let none dwell in their tents.
Psalms 109 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Act 1:16 Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks View Post
Understandable. However, I too do not believe there would be a 13th Apostle. There are many things that we would consider objectionable that God did not correct like polygamy in the OT or When Paul cut his hair and took a vow under pressure from the legalistic James.

Obviously, a 13th Apostle would be wrong in God's number count and because the future plans do not include such. However, Paul was called by Jesus and is called an Apostle. Moreover, his ministry was huge and reflected a great commission by God for that work, and would be deemed for none but an Apostle.

I believe the Apostles rushed to fill the position without waiting on God. And that Paul is the 12th Apostle and the true replacement of Judas.

Now, having said that, this would be a very minor issue and need not divide us.
Amen?
Nope, see my prior post., which gives the Scriptures about that.
The Holy Spirit elected Matthias, as he was an eyewitness of Jesus' life and Gospel. Foundational witnesses elected to be the foundation of the Church were chosen from those who saw Jesus and heard Him and were with Him, learning. As the Word says.

Paul was not a foundational apostle, just the first called, and also called at the same time as Barnabas, to the Gentiles specifically -and there were more than those and there are still more than those. Most of the time anymore, in the west, the Church has called them "missionary evangelists", but "missionary" is not an office given to the Church by the Holy Spirit, while "apostle" is an office appointed in the Church by the Holy Spirit.



Disciple is from the word which means pupil, which is from the word "pupa".
Apostle is from the word which means to be sent.
The Apostles were "Sent", by Jesus, just as Jesus was sent by the Father, and when Jesus sends apostles, He empowers them with gifts to prove they have the office of apostle. The Holy Spirit makes apostles of men, and men cannot make apostles of men.

There were more apostles in the NT, and still are in the Church age, and will be, until the Church is removed from the earth, but there are only twelve foundational Apostles, just as there are twelve gates named for each tribe of Israel in that City built "foursquare".

Today, people seem to think there are no "called and sent/ apostles", but that is not true, and real apostles are called, and sent, by the LORD, and they have gifts of the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel, which is confirmed by the LORD, in signs and wonders.

Jesus appoints apostles. One in the NT was a woman, "Junia", of note "among the apostles" -as the Greek states. Silas was an apostle with Paul, but first, Barnabas was called by the Holy Spirit to be equally an apostle to the Gentiles with Paul.
After Paul and Barnabas split, Silas went with Paul, and Mark went with Barnabas, as "sent =apostles", evangelising and establishing the Gentile Churches.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:59 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,665,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbiejeanangelina View Post
In the King James Version, it states they were called disciples. Paul (writer of most books of the New Testament) called himself an Apostle of Christ. I guess I'm just wondering what the difference is b/t a disciple and apostle. Anyone know?
A student/disciple and one sent/apostle.
All are to be disciples, in the Church, but not all are called, empowered with the sign gifts of an apostle, and "sent".
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I would imagine it would be Paul as the 12th....keep in mind the other was elected by lot and not by God.
Casting lots was one of God's ordained ways to choose His will in Israel, in the Torah. The Word is clear that the Holy Spirit made the choice by lot, when the Apostles prayed for Him to do so.
Paul cannot be a foundational apostle, as he was not an eyewitness to the life and Gospel of Christ. Only eyewitnesses were chosen to be foundational Apostles, who were there with the LORD, "from the beginning". Paul was not.
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