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Old 12-15-2009, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,817,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Did you read what I typed just above your post, Mercy? How was he prophecy fulfilled when it is clear it was NOT speaking of Jesus as I showed above? Secondly, are you also aware that Bethlehem and Ephrathah were actual people who had actual clans?

Again, Micah's words shows he believed a leader was to come from the clan of Bethlehem. That's fine, but he clearly does NOT have Jesus in mind and the REST of the chapter bears this fact out.
No he didn't have Jesus in mind. I believe it is God he speaks of throughout.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
I read it, believe what you like.
God's word is plain to me.
God never contradicts his own word. OT backs up NT. NT backs up OT.
God prophesised about his Son from Samuel, the Psalms and all the Prophets.
Seek and Knock and the door shall be opened!
Have a wonderful day!
Um...ooookay.

Guess 'God's word' is not plain to me then.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:37 AM
 
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Let me put some verses together here from Micah 5:2, 5-6:

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.

And this One shall be peace.
When the Assyrian comes into our land,
And when he treads in our palaces,
Then we will raise against him
Seven shepherds and eight princely men.
They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria,
And the land of Nimrod at its entrances;
Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian,
When he comes into our land
And when he treads within our borders.
================================================== =====

Sounds like it has nothing to do with Jesus when the REST of the chapter is considered? I'm always reminded about CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

I know the mention of the word 'everlasting' in verse 2 might be brought up as proof it is speaking of Jesus, however, the word "old" right before it, gives some context clues that the word "everlasting" in this instance does not mean eternal. It simply means antiquity, ancient or long time ago indicating that this hero has [family] ties to an ancient family who happens to be Ephrathah. See this from the Hebrew lexicon on that word:

`owlam - King James Version Hebrew Lexicon
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:59 AM
 
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Oh, I failed to point out that as far as we know, Micah's prophecy failed to come to pass. There was no hero from the Bethlehem clan who rose up and delivered Hezekiah's Judah from the Assyrians unless it happened but no one cared to record it. According to the bible, the people of Judah were delivered in some miraculous fashion but not as Micah predicted it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:44 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Hi Enow,

Well thank you for you elaboration/explanation, but no I cannot accept the idea Micah 5 speaks of Jesus. If you can permit me to put some perspective here:

Micah was a prophet who lived during the time of the prophet Hezekiah. The threat at the time was the Assyrians led by king Sennacharib. The Assyrians laid siege to Jerusalem and were trying to starve the population into submission. It was into this mess that Micah makes his "prophecy." He believed a hero would come forward from the Judean family - Bethlehem-Ephratath. This hero/savior had nothing to do with Jesus or even 700 years into the future. We know this because I think it is verse 5 of the chapter tells us that this hero Micah has in mind will drive the Assyrians back to their land with the help of some assistants. Jesus never did such a thing and the Assyrians were long removed from the pages of history long before the time of Jesus. Clearly, with context in mind, Micah is not speaking of Jesus, but rather, a contemporary of his own time.

My opinion.
Okay. So you are coming from Micah's instead of Matthew's point of view. I guess I was having trouble figuring out where you were coming from in regards to the questions. I was afraid I would be seen as deviating from the OP if I had figured out your line of questioning wrong.

Seeing on the internet that Assyria is in the area of Mesopotamia sharing territories that are of Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq.... I can only get a glimpse of the possible connection to yet another future prophecy where Russia teams up with Persia or Iran to move on Israel as prophesied to occur in the latter days.. during the great tribulation. It is also said that as the armies of te world amass at the Valley of Armegeddon, the river in Iraq will be dried up to allow the great army from the Far East: China to come through as well.

Jesus will be coming back to defeat the world's armies at the valley of Armegeddon.

Could that be the prophecy as seen by Micah using the area he knows it to be called in that day as Assyria from whence the enemies would come?

So yeah... I could see that as pertaining to Jesus because He came forth from Bethlehem and now that He has ascended, is prophesied to come back to set up His kingdom on the earth for that 1000 year reign of Christ after defeating the world's armies converging through the area known as Assyria and teaming up with those of the area which is looking to be Iranians.

Yeah.. I know that there are Assyrians still.. or they claim to be.. but as for reference to when they held land and was considered a nation: Micah used whatever term to designate the area and the people from that area as the enemies of the Lord.

Now I believe Micah's prophesy was a double prophesy.

Another example of a double prophesy is happening now:

The falling away of the faith: 1 Timothy 4:1-2 because of false prophets broadening the way and thus being ecumenical in nature: Matthew 7:13-27 and Luke 13:24-30 which will result in judgment on the House of God firstL 1 Peter 4:17 by which one can see the double prophesy of Jeremiah as applying :

Jeremiah 50: 6My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. 7All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.

One can see a nuclear war being depicted here:

Jeremiah 50:9For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

If Russia launches nukes, they will come over the North Poles.. the shortest route.

Now I could go on and share scriptures comparing the eerie similarness of the Old Testament with Revelation and other prophesies: but consider this:

If God permits you to see this truth:

Jesus said that scriptures cannot be broken:

So whatever judgments occurred in the past will happen again in the future following the same conditions of that judgment:

Granted that there was no nuclear war in the past, but when you read similar descriptions of cities wasted in the OT of what you would find in the NT, one cannot help but see the double prophesies being done here.

Jeremiah 50: 11Because ye were glad, because ye rejoiced, O ye destroyers of mine heritage, because ye are grown fat as the heifer at grass, and bellow as bulls; 12Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert. 13Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.

Revelation 18: 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities..... 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

So if God promised a seed from the fall of man.. then whatever God has said in regards to the Saviour will be known as applied.

Hidden so that if the princes of this world knew that Jesus was going to win out after putting Him to death, they would have never crucified him. So when looking back one can find, by His grace, hidden prophecies of God's word spoken that were confirming the word of the seed promised.

1 Corinthians 2: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

So all I can ask you to do.. after reading those scriptures by your education: is to ask the Lord for wisdom and the answers you seek.

God's promise is that all those that seek, shall find. Seek the Lord now while He may be found, and may you find the answers you seek.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:38 PM
 
4,832 posts, read 3,976,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Okay. So you are coming from Micah's instead of Matthew's point of view. I guess I was having trouble figuring out where you were coming from in regards to the questions. I was afraid I would be seen as deviating from the OP if I had figured out your line of questioning wrong.

Seeing on the internet that Assyria is in the area of Mesopotamia sharing territories that are of Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq.... I can only get a glimpse of the possible connection to yet another future prophecy where Russia teams up with Persia or Iran to move on Israel as prophesied to occur in the latter days.. during the great tribulation. It is also said that as the armies of te world amass at the Valley of Armegeddon, the river in Iraq will be dried up to allow the great army from the Far East: China to come through as well.

Jesus will be coming back to defeat the world's armies at the valley of Armegeddon.

Could that be the prophecy as seen by Micah using the area he knows it to be called in that day as Assyria from whence the enemies would come?

So yeah... I could see that as pertaining to Jesus because He came forth from Bethlehem and now that He has ascended, is prophesied to come back to set up His kingdom on the earth for that 1000 year reign of Christ after defeating the world's armies converging through the area known as Assyria and teaming up with those of the area which is looking to be Iranians.

Yeah.. I know that there are Assyrians still.. or they claim to be.. but as for reference to when they held land and was considered a nation: Micah used whatever term to designate the area and the people from that area as the enemies of the Lord.

Now I believe Micah's prophesy was a double prophesy.

Another example of a double prophesy is happening now:

The falling away of the faith: 1 Timothy 4:1-2 because of false prophets broadening the way and thus being ecumenical in nature: Matthew 7:13-27 and Luke 13:24-30 which will result in judgment on the House of God firstL 1 Peter 4:17 by which one can see the double prophesy of Jeremiah as applying :

Jeremiah 50: 6My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. 7All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.

One can see a nuclear war being depicted here:

Jeremiah 50:9For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

If Russia launches nukes, they will come over the North Poles.. the shortest route.

Now I could go on and share scriptures comparing the eerie similarness of the Old Testament with Revelation and other prophesies: but consider this:

If God permits you to see this truth:

Jesus said that scriptures cannot be broken:

So whatever judgments occurred in the past will happen again in the future following the same conditions of that judgment:

Granted that there was no nuclear war in the past, but when you read similar descriptions of cities wasted in the OT of what you would find in the NT, one cannot help but see the double prophesies being done here.

Jeremiah 50: 11Because ye were glad, because ye rejoiced, O ye destroyers of mine heritage, because ye are grown fat as the heifer at grass, and bellow as bulls; 12Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert. 13Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.

Revelation 18: 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities..... 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

So if God promised a seed from the fall of man.. then whatever God has said in regards to the Saviour will be known as applied.

Hidden so that if the princes of this world knew that Jesus was going to win out after putting Him to death, they would have never crucified him. So when looking back one can find, by His grace, hidden prophecies of God's word spoken that were confirming the word of the seed promised.

1 Corinthians 2: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

So all I can ask you to do.. after reading those scriptures by your education: is to ask the Lord for wisdom and the answers you seek.

God's promise is that all those that seek, shall find. Seek the Lord now while He may be found, and may you find the answers you seek.
I'm a simple kinda guy, Enow. All of that seems to require a little too much mental and verbal gymnastics when a simple, straightfoward explanation is right there. To do more would be considered "reading into the text" what isn't there. Micah lived during the time of the Assyrian siege of Jerusalem and he was from Judah. That he then predicts (some say this was a redaction by another writer of writers, but I digress) a hero who would rise up against the Assyrians and drive them back in HIS time would not be that surprising. That he predicts a hero who was to arrive 700 years later to drive back an enemy who no longer existed as a threat is what would be unlikely.

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 12-16-2009 at 08:52 PM..
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:00 PM
 
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Oh, I failed to mention the ramification of NOT believing Micah was not speaking of Jesus. For some Christians this would hurt their belief that Jesus was predicted by Old Testament prophets. On the other hand, if Micah was speaking of HIS time, and he seems he was, then his prediction, as far as we can tell, did not come to pass other than the fact the bible tells us the Assyrians were miraculously defeated by some angelic intervention.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:51 PM
 
150 posts, read 180,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Hi Enow,

Well thank you for you elaboration/explanation, but no I cannot accept the idea Micah 5 speaks of Jesus. If you can permit me to put some perspective here:

Micah was a prophet who lived during the time of the prophet Hezekiah. The threat at the time was the Assyrians led by king Sennacharib. The Assyrians laid siege to Jerusalem and were trying to starve the population into submission. It was into this mess that Micah makes his "prophecy." He believed a hero would come forward from the Judean family - Bethlehem-Ephratath. This hero/savior had nothing to do with Jesus or even 700 years into the future. We know this because I think it is verse 5 of the chapter tells us that this hero Micah has in mind will drive the Assyrians back to their land with the help of some assistants. Jesus never did such a thing and the Assyrians were long removed from the pages of history long before the time of Jesus. Clearly, with context in mind, Micah is not speaking of Jesus, but rather, a contemporary of his own time.

My opinion.
How can a contemporary of his own day fit the description "from everlasting".
Only Jesus can fit this description
.
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
How can a contemporary of his own day fit the description "from everlasting".
Only Jesus can fit this description
.
Not so fast, my friend. I realize that our western eyes sees the word "everlasting" and assume it has only ONE meaning - "eternal." Did you see the lexicon usage I provided earlier (from a reputable Christian site, by the way). The word "everlasting" in the sense of "forever" or "eternal" is how we westerners often interpret the word. The word, in this context, however, is being used to show "antiquity," "ancient," "a long time ago," or "in the distant past." What the writer was trying to imply was that this hero has a lineage that went way back into Israelite history in much the same way the New Testament writers tried to show that Jesus' lineage went back as far as Abraham to bolster the claim that he was who they said he was.

Here's the more accurate reading from the Revised Standard Version Bible of Micah 5:2 which uses the VERY old(er) Dead Sea Scrolls as its basis:

Quote:
But you, O Bethlehem Eph'rathah,
who are little to be among the clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me
one who is to be ruler in Israel,
whose origin is from of old,
from ancient days.
Better???

Other Bibles, such as the NIV, also says something similar.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:46 AM
 
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Moderator, can you put this in the R&P forum, please?

Thank you!
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