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Old 12-17-2009, 02:30 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,436,747 times
Reputation: 142

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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Oh, I failed to mention the ramification of NOT believing Micah was not speaking of Jesus. For some Christians this would hurt their belief that Jesus was predicted by Old Testament prophets. On the other hand, if Micah was speaking of HIS time, and he seems he was, then his prediction, as far as we can tell, did not come to pass other than the fact the bible tells us the Assyrians were miraculously defeated by some angelic intervention.
Actually, it doesn't. He is risen.

Everything else as far as your topic of concern, is just you are not seeing it because you are trying to understand it from an intellectual point of view.

I understand why you are not seeing it: you are not asking God to see it.

Remember the verses that of the princes of this world knew of His coming, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

It took "wise men" from the Far East to see it in the scriptures as it prompted Herod to ask those in scriptural authorities for confirmation:

This is why Matthew referenced it. He believed it as he understood it with the Lord's help.

I know that what you have read is applicable to the current event at the time Micah was writing it: but at the same time, it was serving as a double prophesy by which "everlasting" has nothing to do with the comtemporary of that day.

The Jews had expected a Messiah that was coming to reign and to save them, but Jesus did not want them to know that He is their King right off the bat because He had another purpose to fulfill first: to save His people from their sins: Then He is to come back to fulfill the expected prophesy by which can be seen in verse 3 of Micah 5 as the last battle nears with the world's armies gathering together... marching through and with the armies native to the Assyria former domain that are heading for the valley of Armegeddon.

It's like when God spoke.. it shall be. It cannot become undone. What may have been for the moment does not all apply for the moment, but can only apply to the seed promised from the beginning as that moment is mirrored towards the glory of God as scriptures testifies of Him: John 5:39-40

But you are not going to see it nor any of the other proclaimed fulfilled prophecies of Jesus until God helps you to see it.

http://www.squidoo.com/messianicprophecy
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:41 PM
 
7,327 posts, read 5,824,494 times
Reputation: 1233
Interesting, the prophet uses the promise of the man of peace who`s name will help Israel to the end of the earth in Micah 5: 4-5 . The Lord God gives a promise of a deliverer to come but for now we have the hope and that can be a point of contact to receive. Yes Old Testament Israel was given a promise that brought hope to the Children, just like the rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ can bring today. `` He shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God and they shall abide ; for now shall he be great unto the end of the earth. And this name shall be the peace`` This is definitely a point of contact for the Lord as the word of God to receive from heaven and to receive as the shadow of power to receive then Hundreds of years before Jesus Christ was begotton to the Lord God.
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:52 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,555 posts, read 6,242,344 times
Reputation: 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Everything else as far as your topic of concern, is just you are not seeing it because you are trying to understand it from an intellectual point of view.
Why should I suspend my intellect to understand what I read when I use that same intellect to understand everything else that I read, Enow?

Quote:
I understand why you are not seeing it: you are not asking God to see it.
Did I mention I was NOT a Christian? This is one of the reasons why there is barely anyone else in here posting. The Christian god and I are not on thse kind of speaking terms. In fact, why should I need him to help me see something things that the intellect he supposedly gave to me should pick up? It was the great Robert Ingersoll who asked, "if the brain god gave me dos not agree with the book god wrote, whose fault is it?"

Quote:
Remember the verses that of the princes of this world knew of His coming, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.
Yes, I know it well.

Quote:
It took "wise men" from the Far East to see it in the scriptures as it prompted Herod to ask those in scriptural authorities for confirmation:
I'll leave this one alone for another day, Enow.

Quote:
This is why Matthew referenced it. He believed it as he understood it with the Lord's help.
So you agree that Matthew believed what the scribes said to Herod - that is, the king Herod feared would be born in Bethlehem? I was giving a way out actually. If Micah was not speaking about Jesus then we could easily say that the scribes (sinners) were wrong anyway, but if we agree that Matthew also believed it, then Christians are left to explain the problem in Micah 5 in relation to it being a prediction of Jesus.

Quote:
I know that what you have read is applicable to the current event at the time Micah was writing it: but at the same time, it was serving as a double prophesy by which "everlasting" has nothing to do with the comtemporary of that day.
I know all about the Christian theory of "dual-prophesy." In my opinion, this is not one of them. Dual prophecy is just a cute way of reinterpreting words NOT meant for the future by making them fit into a future.

Quote:
The Jews had expected a Messiah that was coming to reign and to save them, but Jesus did not want them to know that He is their King right off the bat because He had another purpose to fulfill first: to save His people from their sins: Then He is to come back to fulfill the expected prophesy by which can be seen in verse 3 of Micah 5 as the last battle nears with the world's armies gathering together... marching through and with the armies native to the Assyria former domain that are heading for the valley of Armegeddon.
I realize you are going "end times" on me here, but that is a whole other subject that requires pages to refute.

Quote:
But you are not going to see it nor any of the other proclaimed fulfilled prophecies of Jesus until God helps you to see it.

http://www.squidoo.com/messianicprophecy
As I said, the bible's god and I are not speaking terms.
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:29 PM
 
150 posts, read 245,687 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Not so fast, my friend. I realize that our western eyes sees the word "everlasting" and assume it has only ONE meaning - "eternal." Did you see the lexicon usage I provided earlier (from a reputable Christian site, by the way). The word "everlasting" in the sense of "forever" or "eternal" is how we westerners often interpret the word. The word, in this context, however, is being used to show "antiquity," "ancient," "a long time ago," or "in the distant past." What the writer was trying to imply was that this hero has a lineage that went way back into Israelite history in much the same way the New Testament writers tried to show that Jesus' lineage went back as far as Abraham to bolster the claim that he was who they said he was.

Here's the more accurate reading from the Revised Standard Version Bible of Micah 5:2 which uses the VERY old(er) Dead Sea Scrolls as its basis:



Better???

Other Bibles, such as the NIV, also says something similar.
Have you ever read Luke chapter 3 ??? [Luke 3:23-38]
Jesus earthly lineage has a DIRECT LINK to Adam.Jesus is the One who Created Adam in His likeness and image so He is the author and finisher of this lineage- The Alpha and the Omega.

The Bible states from everlasting and that is what it means.
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:49 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,436,747 times
Reputation: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Why should I suspend my intellect to understand what I read when I use that same intellect to understand everything else that I read, Enow?
Then why did Jesus spoke in parables?

Quote:
Did I mention I was NOT a Christian? This is one of the reasons why there is barely anyone else in here posting. The Christian god and I are not on thse kind of speaking terms.
I can tell you were not a believer. I had thought you were an honest seeker, asking questions to understand from a christian point of view.

Quote:
In fact, why should I need him to help me see something things that the intellect he supposedly gave to me should pick up? It was the great Robert Ingersoll who asked, "if the brain god gave me dos not agree with the book god wrote, whose fault is it?"
Yours. As you said... God wrote it, then you need God's help to understand His Words.

Quote:
Yes, I know it well.
You are not going to see it even after the fact.

Quote:
I'll leave this one alone for another day, Enow.
That was one of the topical queries of this thread. Your choice.

Quote:
So you agree that Matthew believed what the scribes said to Herod - that is, the king Herod feared would be born in Bethlehem? I was giving a way out actually. If Micah was not speaking about Jesus then we could easily say that the scribes (sinners) were wrong anyway, but if we agree that Matthew also believed it, then Christians are left to explain the problem in Micah 5 in relation to it being a prediction of Jesus.
They are not going to explain it to the world nor to you. Even now, you acknowledge it, but claim it is out of context. That is your unbelief showing. That is why God is not revealing anything to you because you are not seeking.

Quote:
I know all about the Christian theory of "dual-prophesy." In my opinion, this is not one of them. Dual prophecy is just a cute way of reinterpreting words NOT meant for the future by making them fit into a future.
So you do know the answer to your supposed query.

Then by your standard of judgment, your "cute" way is also seen in how you conveniently redefine everlasting to fit your unbeliefs. See how that works? You are pursuing this thread to implicate your views and opinions as the correct one.

Quote:
I realize you are going "end times" on me here, but that is a whole other subject that requires pages to refute.
So really, all this was about was refuting and mocking the christian beliefs just to favour what seems to be to you, a winning argument, but it all hinges on you hood-winking believers into accepting your unbelief by redefining everlasting.

Quote:
As I said, the bible's god and I are not speaking terms.
Then I can understand why the native posters avoid you. You seem to understand that as well.

"Character is higher than intellect." ~Emerson
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:38 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,555 posts, read 6,242,344 times
Reputation: 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
Have you ever read Luke chapter 3 ??? [Luke 3:23-38]
Jesus earthly lineage has a DIRECT LINK to Adam.Jesus is the One who Created Adam in His likeness and image so He is the author and finisher of this lineage- The Alpha and the Omega.

The Bible states from everlasting and that is what it means.

You're not interested in paying attention to other definitions the word may have in Hebrew, huh? It's going to mean whatever you want it to mean I guess.
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:01 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,555 posts, read 6,242,344 times
Reputation: 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Then why did Jesus spoke in parables?
Why the need? Why speak in riddles instead of plain Hebrew? Only creates room for confusion and misunderstanding, right?



Quote:
I can tell you were not a believer. I had thought you were an honest seeker, asking questions to understand from a christian point of view.
Who says I wan't Enow? To understand does not have to mean accepting, right? I understand where you are coming from but it does not mean I have to agree.


Quote:
As you said... God wrote it, then you need God's help to understand His Words.
But I don't need Walt Whitman, Hemingway, Shakespeare, Voltaire or Homer to understand their books, right?



Quote:
You are not going to see it even after the fact.
But who is determining this "fact," Enow?


Quote:
They are not going to explain it to the world nor to you. Even now, you acknowledge it, but claim it is out of context. That is your unbelief showing. That is why God is not revealing anything to you because you are not seeking.
But I can't believe just for believing sake and as a result, you are claiming that because I don't believe like you, your god has not revealed this cryptic revelation to me. What if I am actually right?


Quote:
Then by your standard of judgment, your "cute" way is also seen in how you conveniently redefine everlasting to fit your unbeliefs. See how that works? You are pursuing this thread to implicate your views and opinions as the correct one.
Show me where I was wrong in what I said. It's your Bible that says this heroes origins are from "days of old" and from ancient times. It is us as westerners who is applying a western understanding to the world "everlasting." Something ancient does not make it eternal.

Quote:
So really, all this was about was refuting and mocking the christian beliefs just to favour what seems to be to you, a winning argument, but it all hinges on you hood-winking believers into accepting your unbelief by redefining everlasting.
Where did I mock any Christian belief in this thread? Please show me. Thank you in advance?

Quote:
Then I can understand why the native posters avoid you. You seem to understand that as well.
Here's a little observation. In this forum, Christians argue with one another harder and fiercer than I ever can, but it is not stopping them from going at it for pages on end. Each side is trying to convert each to the other's point of view. They are not avoiding each other. I was once a Christian and some of these questions were questions I had as a Christian and never received concrete, foolproof answers in my old circles. Maybe I could have better success here? I guess it is more than my questions. Maybe they avoid me because my arm stinks.

Quote:
"Character is higher than intellect." ~Emerson
Nice quote. I love it, but who is talking about character here?
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