U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-17-2009, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
193 posts, read 552,820 times
Reputation: 58

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Actually the definition of "atheism" has changed over the years just like many other words such as bigot, tolerance etc.... Atheism were firm believers in that "God does not exist" (PERIOD)

Belief is irrelevant, truth is relevant. I like the philosophical tongue game atheists play these days with the meaning of "atheism" after all since I worship only one God as opposed to other religions then I am an atheist too....wah...wah..get it.

of course I can

(Psalm 19:1-4).

“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world”
You're right. Atheists are firm believers that God does not exist. That's exactly where I fall. I am a firm believer that God does not exist. I'm not trying to change that definition. Can I prove to you that God does not exist? Well, I can state theories and make claims, but I can't really give you proof like I can prove that I have 10 fingers. But I am a believer that he doesn't exist.

That passage might be proof for you, but it's not for me. It wouldn't be proof for a lot of other people, either. However, if this turns into a discussion about proof of God, I think we're just going to go in circles.

My main point in all of this was just that I don't like to bring the word "hate" into atheism. Some might, but I don't. I just don't have the beliefs that you do.

I hope I didn't hi-jack this thread.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-17-2009, 04:23 PM
 
3,225 posts, read 193,341 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Actually the term "atheism" has changed over the years just like many other words such as bigot, tolerance etc.... Atheism were firm believers in that "God does not exist" (PERIOD)

To ask, Do you know if God exist would be an illogical question since no one can make the claim to the latter so why would it even be a launching point for a certain group, wouldn't it render that group moot?

Belief is irrelevant, truth is relevant. I like the philosophical tongue game atheists play these days with the term atheism

Hmm I would think that is semantics -- believe that God does not exist would be the same as does not believe in God

If we think of aliens ----> we can not see them, there is no proof for them.

It is the same thing to say I do not believe in aliens and I believe that aliens do not exist - to me it is saying the same thing in a different way. And just because I do not believe in aliens, it has no bearing on loving or hating aliens -- it certainly does not imply that I hate aliens.

If aliens did exist and it was proven that they would destroy humans, yes, I would probably "hate" them. If aliens existed and they were superior to us humans and loved us - I would probably love them. It would depend on the intent of how the aliens felt toward us.

Your arguments of atheists not believing in God or believing that God does not exist and saying that disbelief implies a hate of God are tying together 2 things that are not directly related.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-17-2009, 04:30 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 11,914,488 times
Reputation: 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawJ View Post
You're right. Atheists are firm believers that God does not exist. That's exactly where I fall. I am a firm believer that God does not exist. I'm not trying to change that definition. Can I prove to you that God does not exist? Well, I can state theories and make claims, but I can't really give you proof like I can prove that I have 10 fingers. But I am a believer that he doesn't exist.

That passage might be proof for you, but it's not for me. It wouldn't be proof for a lot of other people, either. However, if this turns into a discussion about proof of God, I think we're just going to go in circles.

My main point in all of this was just that I don't like to bring the word "hate" into atheism. Some might, but I don't. I just don't have the beliefs that you do.

I hope I didn't hi-jack this thread.
The proof through observation.....you look at this planet-the right mixture of gases in order to breathe and grow.... the universe....the human body...symmetry-our elbows, knees, even a mere thought or language....which came first thought or language? How precise the eyes are and I can go one for decades about this world alone let alone the human body or the universe and your observation is....it just happened? time+chance=everything...what are the odds in the unverse on winning billions of lotteries? let alone one lottery?

What are the odds? What is the probability? but it happened right...for no ryhme or reason?

Look you can believe whatever you want but you have to admit we Christians make sound intelligent, logical arguments as opposed to Zeus worshippers who heard a thunder and saw lightning from the sky and thought it was a god. They knew there was a god, the problem was they instead of searching for the real one they created one.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-17-2009 at 04:41 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-17-2009, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
193 posts, read 552,820 times
Reputation: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The proof through observation.....you look at this planet-the right mixture of gases in order to breathe and grow.... the universe....the human body...symetry-our elbows, knees, how precise the eye are and I can go one for decades about this world alone let alone the human body or the universe and your observation is....it just happened? time+chance=everything...what are the odds in the unverse on winning billions of lotteries? let alone one lottery?

What are the odds? what's the probability? and your explaination of these impossible odds?
But can't I ask you the same thing? Look at how complex everything is, and you want to say some super being created it all? Look at the immense nature of our Universe, or the 25,000 different species of beetles (as Sam Harris would bring up) and some being created it? I don't think that's any more probable.

But Funamentalist, I think this is going in the wrong direction. We could argue about this forever if we really wanted to. I was simply stating that the word hate was, in my opinion, unfairly brought into atheism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-17-2009, 05:26 PM
 
16 posts, read 22,648 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The bible says we are all at enmity with Him which is what other "Christians" should tell you rather than supporting your total misundestanding of scripture and Christianity but I digresss.

You say, you don't hate God...well if God appeared before you and said, I have given you life, a mind, healthy body, air to breathe, water, food, clothing, family to love now bow down and worship me because I deserve it. Would you? WHY OR WHY NOT?
No i would not. It's clear by the prophecies that God would not appear to me, but according to the New covenant manifest his spirit inside me if my body is a temple for the holy spirit. It's for this reason that I question the alleged conversion of Paul which much of his alleged teachings in much of the new testiment go contrary to what Jesus is recorded as stating.

If Jesus actually was taken to heaven and revealed himself after that moment through the spirit within his apostles after pentacost. The light that blinded paul was Not God, but Satan (if there is such a thing) manifesting as an angel of light claiming to be Jesus leading paul into a false Christianity where Jesus taught the Way, the truth and the life.

It can be seen in the writings of Paul that the Lord was with him in the prison giving him comfort. This goes contrary to the statement that the Lord would not return in a physical sense until the second comming.

I find it interesting that a Prophet from Jerusalem (Agabus) went to Antioch to meet the paulian hellenistic converts and immediately prophecied a Famine through out all the world. Was he talking about a spiritual famine (Christian world)? It's very possible if the spirit of God is spiritual food (words of truth). It's clear the Greek hellenists perceived this to be in reference to a physical famine and missed the spiritual aspect of this prophecy. This would explain why the Christians of today do not have the spiritual powers that were given to the apostles who were of the WAY the truth and life in every way that the son of Man Jesus was and taught by living example.

I would not say i'm a Pro at Scripture but I can tell the difference between mixed testimony and solid testimony. The Christians are a mixed bunch and the many denominations of Christianity bares witness to this truth.

If I have neglected keeping the commandments of God in the past, this by definition of what Jesus has spoken would imply that I have no love for God and this i am willing to admit. Does the Christian who claimes to know and love God, but makes excuses for keeping or falling short of the commandments love God more or less than me? Who are we kidding if we proclaim ourselves to be lovers of God and fail to keep the Law of God? It's said that if they keep not the commandments there is no truth in them. Spirit and truth is a requirement for salvation if they are the true worshippers of God.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:3
[ The Test of Knowing Him ] Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.


Does the Christian who falls short of Keeping the commandments love God more than the Athiest who rejects God? By not keeping the Law if you know of it you reject god based on the entire Old Testiment and much of the NT. At least this Possible ex-athiest is careful with words as to not bare false witness by claiming a book to be the word of God when it's clear that the Word of God is a voice of truth from God if Men according to Revelation are to have the Testimony of Jesus. The book simply tries to record this voice of truth which is clearly spirit and not physical paper and pages of a book. it's also clear the book has been corrupted and causes men to make it their God (teacher) in concert with their imagination. Instead of doing what is needed to truely love God (If God exists) by keeping the commandments.

It's said that those of the truth (according to the majority of bible recordings this is the Law) will hear God's voice. Do you hear God's voice or simply imagine God speaks to you through a book that most Christians claim is solid truth when Error can be found? They then try to rationalize the Error with differing speculations, which in the end result in denominations and divisions in the Christian world. More over they judge me because I claimed in the past that there is no God when they cannot give solid evidence of God's existence.

Where is the Love of God in Man when the laws of God are burdensom to the Christian?

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


Very Respectfully,

Todd Vetter

Last edited by todd_vetter33; 12-17-2009 at 06:24 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-17-2009, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,831,558 times
Reputation: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by todd_vetter33 View Post
No i would not. It's clear by the prophecies that God would not appear to me, but according to the New covenant manifest his spirit inside me if my body is a temple for the holy spirit. It's for this reason that I question the alleged conversion of Paul which much of his alleged teachings in much of the new testiment go contrary to what Jesus is recorded as stating.

If Jesus actually was taken to heaven and revealed himself after that moment through the spirit within his apostles after pentacost. The light that blinded paul was Not God, but Satan (if there is such a thing) manifesting as an angel of light claiming to be Jesus leading paul into a false Christianity where Jesus taught the Way, the truth and the life.

It can be seen in the writings of Paul that the Lord was with him in the prison giving him comfort. This goes contrary to the statement that the Lord would not return in a physical sense until the second comming.

I find it interesting that a Prophet from Jerusalem (Agibus) went to Antioch to meet the paulian hellenistic converts and immediately prophecied a Famine through out all the world. Was he talking about a spiritual famine (Christian world)? It's clear the Greek hellenists perceived this to be in reference to a physical famine and missed the spiritual aspect of this prophecy. This would explain why the Christians of today do not have the spiritual powers that were given to the apostles who were of the WAY the truth and life in every way that the son of Man Jesus was and taught by living example.

I would not say i'm a Pro at Scripture but I can tell the difference between mixed testimony and solid testimony. The Christians are a mixed bunch and the many denominations of Christianity bares witness to this truth.

If I have neglected keeping the commandments of God in the past, this by definition of what Jesus has spoken would imply that I have no love for God. Does the Christian who claimes to know and love but makes excuses for keeping the commandments love God more or less than me? Who are we kidding if we proclaim ourselves to be lovers of God and fail to keep the Law of God? It's said that if they keep not the commandments there is no truth in them.

1 John 2:4
He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:3
[ The Test of Knowing Him ] Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Does the Christian who falls short of Keeping the commandments love God more than the Athiest? At least this athiest is careful with words as to not bare false witness by claiming a book to be the word of God when it's clear that the word of God is a voice of truth from God. The book simply tries to record this voice of truth which is clearly spirit and not physical paper and pages of a book. it's also clear the book has been corrupted and causes men to make it their God (teacher) in concert with their imagination. Instead of doing what is needed to truely love God (If God exists) by keeping the commandments.

It's said that those of the truth (according to the majority of bible recordings this is the Law) will hear God's voice. Do you hear God's voice or simply imagine God speaks to you through a book that most Christians claim is solid truth when Error can be found? They then try to rationalize the Error with differing speculations, which in the end result in denominations and divisions in the Christian world. More over they judge me because I claimed in the past that there is no God when they cannot give solid evidence of God's existence.

Where is the Love of God in Man when the laws of God are burdensom to the Christian?

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


Very Respectfully,

Todd Vetter
Jesus commandments are not burdensome, even though there are those Christians who would like to make them so by telling others they must keep the law. Jesus said Love God and your neighbor....this fulfills all of the law. It's not a hard thing to do when you remember we are ALL Gods children. If God could forgive and love me....I can do the same.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-17-2009, 09:10 PM
 
16 posts, read 22,648 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Jesus commandments are not burdensome, even though there are those Christians who would like to make them so by telling others they must keep the law. Jesus said Love God and your neighbor....this fulfills all of the law. It's not a hard thing to do when you remember we are ALL Gods children. If God could forgive and love me....I can do the same.

Can God forgive sins unless a man repent? Can man repent with out keeping the Law? Jesus was prophecied to be the Law giver, What salvation is received from the end result of sin by killing Jesus, the firstborn from the dead? Can we be children of God if we continue in Sin? Why then do I need to say God is real, if to deny God is a sin no greater than any other sin, for all sin has a result in death? If I am already forgiven. Why then does anyone even need to teach me about a gospel of a man who died by the hands of sinful men?


"And he said unto them. Love ye one another and all the creatures of God. Yet I say unto you, not all are men, who are in the form of man. Are they men or women in the image of God whose ways are ways of violence, of oppression and wrong, who choose a lie rather than the truth? Nay, verily, till they are born again, and receive the Spirit of Love and Wisdom within their hearts. Then only are they sons and daughters of Israel, and being of Israel they are children of God, And for this cause came I into the world, and for this I have suffered at the hands of sinners."

"And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. As it is written in the prophets, "

. "And Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

"And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts? Can even God forgive sins, if man repent not? Who said, I forgive thee thy sins? Said I not rather, Thy sins are forgiven thee?"

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance"

This section of testimony appears to uproot the foundation of salvation for the Entire Christian world!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"JESUS was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin? And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. The priests indeed receive such offering as a reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against the law of Moses, but for sins against the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment. Is it not written in the prophets, Put your blood sacrifices to your burnt offerings, and away with them, and cease ye from the eating of flesh, for I spake not to your fathers nor commanded them, when I brought them out of Egypt, concerning these things? But this thing I commanded saying: Obey my voice and walk in the ways that I have commanded you, and ye shall be my people, and it shall be well with you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear. And what doth the Eternal command you but to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God? Is it not written that in the beginning God ordained the fruits of the trees and the seeds and the herbs to be food for all flesh? But they have made the House of Prayer a den of thieves, and for the pure Oblation with Incense, they have polluted my altars with blood, and eaten of the flesh of the slain. But I say unto you: Shed no innocent blood nor eat ye flesh. Walk uprightly, love mercy, and do justly, and your days shall be long in the land. The corn that groweth from the earth with the other grain, is it not transmuted by the Spirit into my flesh? The grapes of the vineyard, with the other fruits are they not transmuted by the Spirit into my blood? Let these, with your bodies and souls be your Memorial to the Eternal. In these is the presence of God manifest as the Substance and as the Life of the world. Of these shall ye eat and drink for the remission of sins, and for eternal life, to all who obey my words."

"And the cruel and the loveless shall go away into chastisement for ages, and if they
repent not, be utterly destroyed; but the righteous and the merciful, shall go into life and peace everlasting."

"Now, Jesus had said to his disciples, Woe unto the man who receiveth the mysteries, and falleth into sin thereafter. For such there is no place of repentance in this cycle, seeing they have crucified afresh the Divine Offspring of God and man, and put the Christ within them to an open shame."

"Then saith Jesus unto them again, Peace be unto you, as Abba Amma hath sent me,even so send I you. And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; preach the Gospel, and anounce ye unto all nations; the resurrection of the Son of Man. Teach ye the holy law of love which I have delivered unto you. And whosoever Forsake their sins, they are remitted unto them, and whosoever continue in their sins they are retained unto them. Baptize them who believe and repent, bless and anoint them, and offer ye the pure blation of the fruits of the earth, which I have appointed unto you for a Memorial of me."

It's clear by these words allegedly spoken by Jesus who received the Christ (annointing spirit) that it's the baptism of repentance (water) that washes the temple (body) clean to receive the spirit of God. The spirit of God then purifies the soul when re-united to the spirit..



very respectfully,

Todd

Last edited by todd_vetter33; 12-17-2009 at 09:44 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-17-2009, 09:24 PM
 
16 posts, read 22,648 times
Reputation: 11
I'm curious, The study shared in my original post illustrates Jesus did fulfill all things in the laws of Moses, Prophets and Psalms concerning him. Why then do Christians claim Jesus died around the age of 33 or 34?

The jubilee cycle was 49 years. This means Jesus would have had to at least be 49 years of age at the time of Crucifixion. If jesus was crucified in 30 AD where over 9 time specific prohecies appear to align in history, then Jesus physical birth would have been in 19-20 BC.

This would explain why some eastern Christian traditions illustrate that Joseph, Mary and Jesus were in Egypt for almost 7 years waiting for news that Harod had died.

There is a gospel that exists which states this so there is credibility to this concept yet it re-itterates that the Christian world is not in spirit or in truth if they are living the lie of half truth and false traditions of men.

"Now it was midsummer when Jesus ascended into heaven, and he had not yet attained his fiftieth year, for it was needful that seven times seven years should be fulfilled in his life. Yea, that he might be perfected by the suffering of all experiences, and be an example unto all, to children and parents, to the married and the celibates, to youth and those of full age, yea, and unto all ages and conditions of mortal life."


Very respectfully,

Todd Vetter
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-17-2009, 10:07 PM
 
34,748 posts, read 22,566,291 times
Reputation: 5602
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Jesus commandments are not burdensome, even though there are those Christians who would like to make them so by telling others they must keep the law. Jesus said Love God and your neighbor....this fulfills all of the law. It's not a hard thing to do when you remember we are ALL Gods children. If God could forgive and love me....I can do the same.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-18-2009, 09:58 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 11,914,488 times
Reputation: 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hmm I would think that is semantics -- believe that God does not exist would be the same as does not believe in God

If we think of aliens ----> we can not see them, there is no proof for them.

It is the same thing to say I do not believe in aliens and I believe that aliens do not exist - to me it is saying the same thing in a different way. And just because I do not believe in aliens, it has no bearing on loving or hating aliens -- it certainly does not imply that I hate aliens.

If aliens did exist and it was proven that they would destroy humans, yes, I would probably "hate" them. If aliens existed and they were superior to us humans and loved us - I would probably love them. It would depend on the intent of how the aliens felt toward us.

Your arguments of atheists not believing in God or believing that God does not exist and saying that disbelief implies a hate of God are tying together 2 things that are not directly related.
Your alien analogy has left me loss, how you can compare with unknown aliens to atheist who lhave heard the gospel, attended church etc.... is beyond me

If I asked someone, DOES GOD EXIST? and the answer is, "I don't know" then that is agnosticism
If I ask someone, DOES GOD EXIST? and the answer is "No", then that is atheism...again play on words.

OF COURSE THE DISBELIEF OF GOD CAN IMPLY A HATRED OF GOD First off there are no atheists, they are rebels, rebels against God. We were all rebels once. The bible is clear that He will reveal Himself to everyone and we see God all around us. Atheists don't like the idea of someone ruling over them or that they are not masters of their own destiny or perish the thought, one day they will be judged so instead they suppress God by saying, He doesn't exist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top