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Old 12-22-2009, 09:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Sorry Bob, not much time at the moment but think about your last question. Why would Paul remain under the Law? Paul was trying to steal from the Law what was captive under it by persuasion. So Paul's heart for remaining under the Law was not the same as the heart of those captive under it. Again, this all goes back to the heart behind the matter. Did Paul condone being under the Law? - of course not - we see a great many verses from him speaking against it.
Thanks Paul.... I'm in complete agreement with what you wrote.

This is how I was trying to relate it back to Christmas
1. Person A believes he should keep the outward forms of the law to honor God.
2. Person B believes he should celebrate Christmas to honor God.

To those under the law Paul became as under the law. Why could he not have become "as under Christmas" for the sake of those under Christmas?

Suppose my sister will stumble if I refuse her invitation to a Christmas dinner and decorating their tree, and exchanging gifts and singing "Joy to the World". Then why should I make her stumble?

Just as I believe that I can not honor God by observing any ritual, I also believe I can not offend God by observing in any ritual. Or to put it another way, I can not honor God by not observing any ritual. The ritual itself is nothing. But causing my sister to stumble is something.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 12-22-2009 at 09:59 AM..
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Thanks Paul.... I'm in complete agreement with what you wrote.

This is how I was trying to relate it back to Christmas
1. Person A believes he should keep the outward forms of the law to honor God.
2. Person B believes he should celebrate Christmas to honor God.

To those under the law Paul became as under the law. Why could he not have become "as under Christmas" for the sake of those under Christmas?

Suppose my sister will stumble if I refuse her invitation to a Christmas dinner and decorating their tree, and exchanging gifts and singing "Joy to the World". Then why should I make her stumble?

Just as I believe that I can not honor God by observing any ritual, I also believe I can not offend God by observing in any ritual. Or to put it another way, I can not honor God by not observing any ritual. The ritual itself is nothing. But causing my sister to stumble is something.
Well said.
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Thanks Paul.... I'm in complete agreement with what you wrote.

This is how I was trying to relate it back to Christmas
1. Person A believes he should keep the outward forms of the law to honor God.
2. Person B believes he should celebrate Christmas to honor God.

To those under the law Paul became as under the law. Why could he not have become "as under Christmas" for the sake of those under Christmas?

Suppose my sister will stumble if I refuse her invitation to a Christmas dinner and decorating their tree, and exchanging gifts and singing "Joy to the World". Then why should I make her stumble?

Just as I believe that I can not honor God by observing any ritual, I also believe I can not offend God by observing in any ritual. Or to put it another way, I can not honor God by not observing any ritual. The ritual itself is nothing. But causing my sister to stumble is something.
The ritual thing goes back to the heart behind the actions. You just have to ensure that you don't cause another to stumble. I'm curious as to how would she be stumbling by your refusal. What do you mean by that?
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Old 12-23-2009, 08:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
The ritual thing goes back to the heart behind the actions. You just have to ensure that you don't cause another to stumble. I'm curious as to how would she be stumbling by your refusal. What do you mean by that?

She will likely interpret my not coming as a condemnation of what she's doing. She will quite possibly get angry or tune me out about anything else I have to say.
  • Romans 14:6 ...He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
If my sister is giving God thanks in a way that she deems giving thanks to God, then why should I say "your way of giving thanks to God is not acceptable to God"?
  • Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Obviously Paul not saying that there is no such thing as sin. But he is saying that any outward form is not sin in and of itself.
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
She will likely interpret my not coming as a condemnation of what she's doing. She will quite possibly get angry or tune me out about anything else I have to say.

  • Romans 14:6 ...He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
If my sister is giving God thanks in a way that she deems giving thanks to God, then why should I say "your way of giving thanks to God is not acceptable to God"?
  • Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Obviously Paul not saying that there is no such thing as sin. But he is saying that any outward form is not sin in and of itself.
Paul admonished Peter for the same thinking. Surely Peter knew that if the Jews caught him eating with the Gentiles that they would be offended and show disfavor towards him. That is similiar to your thinking that if you don't celebrate with your sister that she will find disfavor with you.

Bob, I have in my house right now a Christmas tree in my front window and I have Christmas decorations throughout the house. I don't celebrate Christmas. This is my wife's efforts to set all that up. I don't condemn her or consider her weakness in Faith to be a reason for her to be unable to receive the Faith I have. In other words, I'm tolerant of her weakness and not put away by it which is what I believe Romans 14 is all about. But it doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and practice the same weakness.
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Paul admonished Peter for the same thinking. Surely Peter knew that if the Jews caught him eating with the Gentiles that they would be offended and show disfavor towards him. That is similiar to your thinking that if you don't celebrate with your sister that she will find disfavor with you.
I don't think it's the same Paul. My sister would not be finding disfavor with me for failing to join her in despising certain people. She would be stumbling at my finding fault with her form of worship of God. Assuming she is trying to worship God, then that is in fact what I'm doing, finding fault with her worship. It all depends on what she is doing (inwardly) and what I am actually joining in with.

Paul became as a Jew with regard to an outward form that of itself was neither here nor there. So that was ok. Some Jews could and did use those outward forms to despise the "publicans and sinners". Paul would never have joined in with that. In contrast, Peter joined with Jews who were despising others, and Peter did it out of fear.

Quote:
Bob, I have in my house right now a Christmas tree in my front window and I have Christmas decorations throughout the house. I don't celebrate Christmas. This is my wife's efforts to set all that up. I don't condemn her or consider her weakness in Faith to be a reason for her to be unable to receive the Faith I have. In other words, I'm tolerant of her weakness and not put away by it which is what I believe Romans 14 is all about. But it doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and practice the same weakness.
That's good Paul.

To my mind it's not automatically a weakness of her faith. It all depends on what is in your wife's heart. If she is "eating to the Lord" in her heart, then she is eating to the Lord. She is not eating to paganism. If she thinks it is right (before God) to worship God in this fashion and if she thinks she would offend God by not doing so, then you can rightly call that a weakness of faith, but it's a rather insignifant one (nothing compared to what Peter did), and it would be sin for her not to do what she thinks the Lord wants her to do. With my sister, she is a believer (mostly othrodox), she would be doing it unto the Lord, though she would not think she has to do it that way.

Regarding Romans 14. If someone is eating herbs (and doing so to the LORD) then I think I should should be willing to join him in eating herbs to the LORD, not just tolerate it. If he can receive it, I can make it known that I also eat meat to the LORD. If he can't receive it, it's probably better left unsaid until he can.
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Old 12-24-2009, 05:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
I don't think it's the same Paul. My sister would not be finding disfavor with me for failing to join her in despising certain people. She would be stumbling at my finding fault with her form of worship of God. Assuming she is trying to worship God, then that is in fact what I'm doing, finding fault with her worship. It all depends on what she is doing (inwardly) and what I am actually joining in with.

Paul became as a Jew with regard to an outward form that of itself was neither here nor there. So that was ok. Some Jews could and did use those outward forms to despise the "publicans and sinners". Paul would never have joined in with that. In contrast, Peter joined with Jews who were despising others, and Peter did it out of fear.



That's good Paul.

To my mind it's not automatically a weakness of her faith. It all depends on what is in your wife's heart. If she is "eating to the Lord" in her heart, then she is eating to the Lord. She is not eating to paganism. If she thinks it is right (before God) to worship God in this fashion and if she thinks she would offend God by not doing so, then you can rightly call that a weakness of faith, but it's a rather insignifant one (nothing compared to what Peter did), and it would be sin for her not to do what she thinks the Lord wants her to do. With my sister, she is a believer (mostly othrodox), she would be doing it unto the Lord, though she would not think she has to do it that way.

Regarding Romans 14. If someone is eating herbs (and doing so to the LORD) then I think I should should be willing to join him in eating herbs to the LORD, not just tolerate it. If he can receive it, I can make it known that I also eat meat to the LORD. If he can't receive it, it's probably better left unsaid until he can.
Bob, if your sister asked you if you thought that Jesus birth is suppose to be celebrated - what would you tell her?
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Old 12-24-2009, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Bob, if your sister asked you if you thought that Jesus birth is suppose to be celebrated - what would you tell her?
Well, I don't really think there is a "supposed to" about it. You remember the scripture where the woman loved Jesus so much she came and washed his feet with her tears. Now what if the disciples asked Jesus "I am supposed to do that too?" there wouldn't really be a valid answer. If Jesus said "yes, you are supposed to" and they did it because they were supposed to it wouldn't have been the same.

If my sister celebrated the birth of Christ each year in some special way, and she did so out of love for Christ and thanks to God for sending Him into the world to save us, then I would say that what she is doing something right and good. But if she were not doing that, I would not tell that she needs to start celebrating Christ's birth each year.
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