Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-27-2013, 03:15 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,093,665 times
Reputation: 2014

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by jco View Post
The Holy Spirit is part of the trinity. As a child, I heard it explained like this. An egg consists of a yolk, the white, and a shell. Still, all three parts make an egg. The Father, the Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are all God, and all are God in one. They have different functions. The Holy Spirit has always existed. In the Old Testament, He existed around us, and now He lives in us.
Pretty close....but the only problem with that is that the yolk is not all of the egg. The shell is not all of the egg. The white is not all of the egg. The Holy Spirit is all God, though. As is the Father and the Son.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-27-2013, 03:45 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,916 posts, read 26,150,281 times
Reputation: 16072
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
The idea that the Holy Spirit is a separate person from the being of the Father Himself is flawed. But let's prove it.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now this compares the Spirit of God to the spirit in man in knowing the things of each respectively. So everyone ask yourselves - Do you have another PERSON within you? - no you don't. God here is showing that He is comparing His Spirit to that which in man when it comes to know the secret things about each persons self.

Additionally, is God the Father, Spirit? - yes. Is God the Father, Holy? - yes. Is God the Father the Holy Spirit? - yes.

So this should come as know surprise when we read the following:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Notice that by the Spirit we don't cry God but we cry FATHER. So yes, the Holy Spirit is a PERSON in the sense that it is the very PERSON of God the Father Himself.

As God, all three Persons of the Trinity are Spirit. Yet each is shown to be a Person distinct but not separate from the others. I have already shown in post #39 that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and from Jesus.

As for 1 Cor. 2:11 which you referenced, in God's plan it is the function of God the Holy Spirit to make spiritual phenomena perspicuous to the believer just as it is His function to make the gospel message perspicuous to the unbeliever. In God's plan each Person of the Trinity has His own function with regard to that Plan.

You asked if we have another Person within us. And then you answered with a 'no'. And yet Jesus Christ is a person and He is within (as in indwelling) us. Not in His humanity, but as God.

In this dispensation all three Persons of the Trinity indwell the Church Age believer.

1.) The indwelling of God the Father: (Is God the Father not a Person?)
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

2.) The indwelling of God the Son (Jesus Christ): (Is Jesus Christ not a Person?)
John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Romans 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

3.) The indwelling of God the Holy Spirit: (The Holy Spirit is a Person as is the Father and the Son.)
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Compare John 14:6 with John 16:13. Jesus said the Father would send the Holy Spirit in His (Jesus') name. And that the Holy Spirit would speak not on His own initiative (the Holy Spirit has initiative) but would speak what He hears (The Holy Spirit hears, and speaks, and has initiative - these are qualities of personhood. Not of a force or an attribute.) Jesus distinquishes the Holy Spirit from the Father and says that the Holy Spirit hears and speaks and has initiative.
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you

John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2013, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,991,708 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As God, all three Persons of the Trinity are Spirit. Yet each is shown to be a Person distinct but not separate from the others. I have already shown in post #39 that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and from Jesus.

As for 1 Cor. 2:11 which you referenced, in God's plan it is the function of God the Holy Spirit to make spiritual phenomena perspicuous to the believer just as it is His function to make the gospel message perspicuous to the unbeliever. In God's plan each Person of the Trinity has His own function with regard to that Plan.

You asked if we have another Person within us. And then you answered with a 'no'. And yet Jesus Christ is a person and He is within (as in indwelling) us. Not in His humanity, but as God.

In this dispensation all three Persons of the Trinity indwell the Church Age believer.

1.) The indwelling of God the Father: (Is God the Father not a Person?)
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

2.) The indwelling of God the Son (Jesus Christ): (Is Jesus Christ not a Person?)
John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Romans 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

3.) The indwelling of God the Holy Spirit: (The Holy Spirit is a Person as is the Father and the Son.)
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Compare John 14:6 with John 16:13. Jesus said the Father would send the Holy Spirit in His (Jesus') name. And that the Holy Spirit would speak not on His own initiative (the Holy Spirit has initiative) but would speak what He hears (The Holy Spirit hears, and speaks, and has initiative - these are qualities of personhood. Not of a force or an attribute.) Jesus distinquishes the Holy Spirit from the Father and says that the Holy Spirit hears and speaks and has initiative.
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you

John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
There is not a single verse your quoting that refutes the understanding that the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit. There is not a verse you will find that can show that the Spirit is a separate PERSONAGE from the Father.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2013, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,769,388 times
Reputation: 9398
The Holy ghost in my estimation is God in transit....the movement of the source and force. It's like a beam of light that the entity travels on...in order to invite God into your being you must open up to that light which is his ghost. The Holy Ghost is also the part of God that is not material.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2013, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,769,388 times
Reputation: 9398
Someone mentioned that the idea of the HOLY Ghost separates man from God. The Ghost is not an individual entity...it is as I said - the movement of God. In order to traverse all of time and space God uses something ghost like or immaterial in order to over come the material laws of physics as we understand them. If God were to move forward he would send out a proceeding trail in essence to ride on...as he passes he also leaves a residual trail...This give the impression that God is everywhere at once..which he is. The closest earthly example of the ghost in motion is the wind at night...if you are sensitive you can feel it before it arrives...if you know what I mean?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2013, 04:58 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,916 posts, read 26,150,281 times
Reputation: 16072
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
There is not a single verse your quoting that refutes the understanding that the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit. There is not a verse you will find that can show that the Spirit is a separate PERSONAGE from the Father.
You have just been shown several verses, deny them though you may, which show that the Holy Spirit IS a Person distinct from the Father. You have not addressed those verses. You have not analyzed them. You have simply dismissed them. I doubt that you even read my brief commentary on them.

The Bible shows the Holy Spirit to be a distinct Person from the Father, and mainstream Christianity recognizes this. But there will always be those such as yourself who for whatever reason won't accept the facts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2013, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,991,708 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You have just been shown several verses, deny them though you may, which show that the Holy Spirit IS a Person distinct from the Father. You have not addressed those verses. You have not analyzed them. You have simply dismissed them. I doubt that you even read my brief commentary on them.

The Bible shows the Holy Spirit to be a distinct Person from the Father, and mainstream Christianity recognizes this. But there will always be those such as yourself who for whatever reason won't accept the facts.
Mike, it isn't a question of denying the verses. You haven't shown how they refute what I have stated. How am I to believe what your saying if what I'm already believing is not refuted?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2013, 06:11 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,916 posts, read 26,150,281 times
Reputation: 16072
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike, it isn't a question of denying the verses. You haven't shown how they refute what I have stated. How am I to believe what your saying if what I'm already believing is not refuted?
Here is how they refute what you are saying. You claim that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct Person of the Trinity. I have shown you that the Holy Spirit is not an attribute but that He has the attributes of personhood. And yet He is shown in those verses to not be the Father. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and speaks what He hears rather than speaking from His own initiative (John 14:26 with John 16:13). An attribute does not hear, does not speak, does not have its own initiative. I gave verses which show that all three Persons of the Trinity indwell the believer. I showed you a verse where the Holy Spirit and the Father, as well as Jesus are all mentioned together and are therefore distinct one from another. This should not be difficult to understand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2013, 08:52 PM
 
1,263 posts, read 1,381,417 times
Reputation: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Here is how they refute what you are saying. You claim that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct Person of the Trinity. I have shown you that the Holy Spirit is not an attribute but that He has the attributes of personhood. And yet He is shown in those verses to not be the Father. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and speaks what He hears rather than speaking from His own initiative (John 14:26 with John 16:13). An attribute does not hear, does not speak, does not have its own initiative. I gave verses which show that all three Persons of the Trinity indwell the believer. I showed you a verse where the Holy Spirit and the Father, as well as Jesus are all mentioned together and are therefore distinct one from another. This should not be difficult to understand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2013, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,991,708 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Here is how they refute what you are saying. You claim that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct Person of the Trinity. I have shown you that the Holy Spirit is not an attribute but that He has the attributes of personhood. And yet He is shown in those verses to not be the Father. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and speaks what He hears rather than speaking from His own initiative (John 14:26 with John 16:13). An attribute does not hear, does not speak, does not have its own initiative. I gave verses which show that all three Persons of the Trinity indwell the believer. I showed you a verse where the Holy Spirit and the Father, as well as Jesus are all mentioned together and are therefore distinct one from another. This should not be difficult to understand.
I never said that the Holy Spirit was an attribute, Mike. I said it was the very personage of God the Father Himself. And there is nothing in those verses that says He is not the Father's very being itself. Again, those verses do NOT in anyway show that the Holy Spirit is a separate person from the Father Himself.

Mike, if what you were saying was true then Jesus is really the Son of the Holy Ghost as a separate person from the Father:

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


Is the Father greater than the Holy Ghost?

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Where is the Father in that verse?

Look here Mike:

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

See in that second verse it is showing that is God the Father's Spirit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top