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Old 12-21-2009, 10:34 PM
 
4,247 posts, read 2,149,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
If One has sovereign will, then nothing else can have "free" will. If One sovereignly acts in accordance with His will - which He does (Eph 1:11), then that will counter all things in opposition to His will.
Are you questioning the first sentence? If that is how you define Sovereignty then that is not correct. Did Adam have free will? What if freewill is not against His will? Then freewill was the Sovereign will of God.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:38 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,816,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Are you questioning the first sentence? If that is how you define Sovereignty then that is not correct. Did Adam have free will? What if freewill is not against His will? Then freewill was the Sovereign will of God.
Good point!
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:45 PM
 
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I kind of like to think of Sovereignty as the right to override and the power to do so.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I kind of like to think of Sovereignty as the right to override and the power to do so.
I like that
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:49 PM
 
23,191 posts, read 11,405,957 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That's not really the point. The point is scripture says it does. I don't know how nor can I harmonize it but it's in scripture.
Well . . . that's it then, right? No point in trying to make it sensible . . . just mindlessly accept it.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:51 PM
 
23,191 posts, read 11,405,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I kind of like to think of Sovereignty as the right to override and the power to do so.
Oh darn, Fundy . . Shiloh made it sensible. Now what do we do?
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:51 PM
 
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In post #73 (p.8) I linked an article that really explains well the unity between freewill and God's Omniscience. Well worth the read. Philosophical in nature - so put your thinking cap on.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:54 PM
 
12,911 posts, read 6,982,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is not an obedience/disobedience issue. It is a success/failure issue in achieving our spiritual purpose. There are consequences to both and that is what produces the discipline. Now pay attention Mike . . . discipline only exists to achieve a change and get a different outcome (or it is pointless and not discipline at all.) Discipline is completely incompatible with any ETERNAL consequence because it precludes any change in outcome. God makes no such selection. In fact, as Jesus He selected us ALL and His Holy Spirit is within each of us. We heed this inner urging (call of the Father) or not depending on our spiritual development . . . NOT what specific beliefs we are told we must accept to be a Christian (whether or not our inner guide finds them acceptable). God is interested in our true inner motivations and love . . . not some externally professed beliefs for the acceptance and consumption of others.
Obedience in time is most certainly an issue.

Hebrews 12:6 says, ''For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.''

And disobedience to the command to believe in Christ for salvation results in the consequence of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire.

Moderator cut: personal

Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-22-2009 at 07:28 AM.. Reason: attack the idea,not the person
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:42 PM
 
366 posts, read 338,115 times
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I'm impressed with the level of discussion going on here. Im not terribly knowledgeable about the theological side of things--my interests and my study have leaned much more to the philosophical. (Heck, I'm in grad school right now working on philosophy!)

However, I'm a bit surprised and a little disappointed with seeing some arrogance and bickering. Gentleness and respect--especially with those who disagree with you. NOBODY has a perfect theology.

Sorry if this is out of line.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:46 PM
 
4,247 posts, read 2,149,736 times
Reputation: 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
I'm impressed with the level of discussion going on here. Im not terribly knowledgeable about the theological side of things--my interests and my study have leaned much more to the philosophical. (Heck, I'm in grad school right now working on philosophy!)

However, I'm a bit surprised and a little disappointed with seeing some arrogance and bickering. Gentleness and respect--especially with those who disagree with you. NOBODY has a perfect theology.

Sorry if this is out of line.
What about Jesus?
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