U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-22-2009, 12:48 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 11,818,802 times
Reputation: 744

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Suffice it to say that not one of us is perfected - there is purging yet to come.
but what does this judgment entail?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:08 PM
 
366 posts, read 459,610 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
They have pretty thick skin here
Maybe so. But the problem is that this kind of fighting seems destructive. Argue vehemently for your understanding of scripture. Deny that the other person's view is in any way correct--go so far as to say that it is dangerous, if you want. But when this goes personal, when folks start saying that the other person has never believed the Gospel, or they need to repent, or they aren't saved, or what have you, and all because of their theological understanding, that seems to go too far.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:16 PM
 
3,225 posts, read 156,117 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
but what does this judgment entail?
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:19 PM
 
3,225 posts, read 156,117 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
Maybe so. But the problem is that this kind of fighting seems destructive. Argue vehemently for your understanding of scripture. Deny that the other person's view is in any way correct--go so far as to say that it is dangerous, if you want. But when this goes personal, when folks start saying that the other person has never believed the Gospel, or they need to repent, or they aren't saved, or what have you, and all because of their theological understanding, that seems to go too far.
Yes .........I do agree with you and at times, in other threads, have tried to point this out ..... and as I said they have pretty thick skin (or have ears that do not hear)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:28 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 11,818,802 times
Reputation: 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
So you believe the righteous will be judged the same way as the unrighteous?

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-22-2009 at 01:38 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:29 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,513 posts, read 10,841,403 times
Reputation: 4388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Believe in Christ or spend eternity in the lake of fire. That's what the Bible says. And that is what I am stating. The scriptures state that those who don't believe in Christ are eternally lost. THAT IS DISTURBING TO CONSIDER. And the fact of the matter is that there will be billions of people who will be in torment in the eternal lake of fire because thay did not believe in Christ. The word of God is deadly serious. Reject it at your own peril.
Choose you this day whom you will serve:

a) Death is destroyed, and God will be all in all

b) Christ's sacrifice was for naught
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:38 PM
 
17,937 posts, read 13,627,150 times
Reputation: 5751
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Suffice it to say that not one of us is perfected - there is purging yet to come.
To the contrary. At the moment of faith in Christ, God imputes His perfect righteousness to the believer and then pronounces him justified. God doesn't see the relative righteousness of the believer. He sees only His own perfect righteousness in the believer. The believer is in perfect standing with God because of the imputation of God's righteousness to that believer. That is positional sanctification. And therefore there is no room for and no need for any kind of purging in eternity.

In time, on earth, you either grow up spiritually and be blessed, or you refuse to grow up spiritually and come under discipline.

But in eternity, the judgments of which you speak are these.

1) The Judgment or bema seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12). For believers only. Takes place after the rapture of the church. Purpose: Evaluation of the believers spiritual production on earth, for the purpose of reward for those works that are determined by Christ to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones.' The works that are judged to be 'wood, hay, and stubble' are burned up. Sin will never be mentioned at the judgment seat of Christ as all sin was paid for by Christ on the Cross. Revelation 19:8 is the final inspection of the brides purity.

2) The Great White Throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) For unbelievers only. Takes place at the end of the Millennium. Purpose: All unbelievers in all of human history will have been resurrected out of Hades and are now facing Jesus Christ who is the righeous judge and who is now going to commence the final judging of those who rejected Him as Savior. Since all sin was judged at the Cross, sin will not be mentioned at the Great White Throne. What will be mentioned is the works of the unbeliever. Since he rejected the work of Christ on the Cross, the unbeliever must now depend on his own works, his human good, to save him. And it's not good enough. It is the works of the unbeliever that condemn him to the eternal lake of fire.

There is no purging of the believer after death. Just an evaluation of his works.

There is no purging of the unbeliever after death. Just Hades and then the final sentencing to the eternal lake of fire.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:38 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 11,818,802 times
Reputation: 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Choose you this day whom you will serve:

a) Death is destroyed, and God will be all in all

b) Christ's sacrifice was for naught
I choose "C"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:51 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,146,766 times
Reputation: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. Man is not declared righteous at the Cross. The barrier of sin was removed at the Cross. The issue then becomes, what think you of Christ.
This is your false gospel of Arminianism. And until those who believe this repent they'll remain unregenerate and an unbeliever in what Christ accomplished for them. You've told us what you think of Christ, and His work for you was not sufficient. I believe Christ saved me at the cross, exactly as God declared and as He told me to believe! God told me to believe in the Gospel for my salvation. And I do. Why don't you?

Quote:
You do not even have that correct. Faith precedes salvation.
Faith proceeds reckoning, but it does not proceed God declaring us righteous. That declaration is merited by Christ alone. When was Abraham reckoned with righteousness? When was the promise of God given, before or after Abraham believed God? The declaration of righteousness is a declaration from God that we are to believe. Why is this so difficult for you to see?

Quote:
Because the Bible declares it over and over again to be so.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Exactly, this is what it means to be reckoned with righteousness (the part you've bolded). But this is not the act of being declared righteous (justification) by Christ alone at the cross. Where it says "Him that justifieth the ungodly", this is the act of God declaring sinners righteous (justification). These are two different act's by God. We are reckoned to be righteous when we believe in God who is declaring the sinner righteous by the work of Christ alone (the Gospel).

Quote:
Romans 3:26
Quote:
To declare, I say at this time his righteousness, that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believeth in Jesus.
Yes, God is the justifier of those who believe in Jesus. And He reckons that promise of justification to them when they believe.

Quote:
Romans 3:28
Quote:
Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
It's Christ's faith being spoken of here, not man's faith. See Rom 3:22. Your understanding of scripture and your doctrines of Arminianism keep you from seeing this glorious truth.

Quote:
Romans 4:3
Quote:
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Yes, Abraham was reckoned with righteousness when he believed. This is what I've been telling you for the last three days! My fingers are getting tired of typing the same thing...LOL

Quote:
To the contrary. Man is born spiritually dead. Jesus said to Nicodemus, ''...Ye must be born again.'' John 3:7
Absolutely, this is why the new birth proceeds any spiritual faith we have.

Quote:
John 3:15
Quote:
'That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believth not the Son shallnot see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Of course. We agree! But this is not what justifies us before God.

Quote:
It is you who do not believe the Gospel as you reject the clear Biblical declaration that you must make the decision to believe in Christ as per the verses listed just above.
Actually you've got it wrong again....LOL Doesn't surprise me though. You had the Gospel wrong too about 4 weeks ago...LOL I do believe the Gospel and I pray that you will too. I believe that it is Christ alone that merits our salvation. You don't. This is why you say the things you do.

Quote:
What you are trying to push on people is straight from the mouth of Satan.
And you blaspheme the Spirit of God, but you do so in unbelief, so there is still pardon for your sin and for your regeneration, and I know this. That's why I continue to proclaim the good news to you!

Quote:
Here is what the Bible says about justification.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness, that he might be just, AND THE JUSTIFIER OF HIM WHO BELIEVETH IN JESUS.

Romans 3:28 Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The believers faith is counted as righteousness. He who believes in Christ is justified by God as a result of His having imputed His righteousness to that person. A person is declared justified by God as a result of making a decision to believe in Christ which results in God imputing His righteousness to that person. The only reason that anyone can have a perfect standing before God is because God imputes His righteousness to them who have believed in Christ. It is not the faith that has the merit, it is the object of the faith that has the merit. Therefore, faith in Christ who did the work of salvation on the Cross results in justifcation which means salvation.
Well, you have part of it right, the part of imputation, but not the part of being declared righteous. Why don't you read and believe Rom 4:25?

Quote:
You are not justified until you receive the imputation of God's righteousness. And it is your faith that is counted as righteousness.

As a result of The work of Christ on the Cross--->a person believes in Christ--->God then imputes His righteousness to that person--->As a result of receiving the imputed righteousness of God, God then declares that person to be justified. As a result, that person now has a perfect standing before God based on God's righteousness in him.
This is the doctrine of Arminianism, which is not the Gospel. We are declared righteous on the merits of Christ alone, my friend. Believe it. The reason you don't like this is because it exposes all your corrupt doctrines and teachings of men. The moment you concede this your spiritual house of cards will collapse.

Quote:
Everyone is ungodly before they make the decision to believe in Christ. The reason they are no longer ungodly, is because they have believed in Christ for salvation. As a result of the faith decision, God imputes His righteousness and then declares them to be justified.
Still have to give you a failing grade here! We are justified by Christ alone and imputed or reckoned with His righteousness through faith, the faith given to us by grace.

Quote:
No one is declared to be righteous at the Cross. What happened at the Cross is that Christ paid the penalty for sin. That means the sin problem has been taken out of the way. There still remains the problem of man's relative righteousness versus God's perfect righteousness. And until a person believes in Christ God does not impute His righteousness to that person, and that person remains under condemnation and will die in his sins as Jesus Christ Himself made abundantly clear to all except a universalist who cannot understand the truth no matter how clear it is made. Here is what Jesus Christ, the God of the universe has to say about it.
Again, more of the same Arminianism heresy being declared as the gospel. Not only were sins paid for at the cross they were forgiven. The sinner was redeemed, declared righteous by Christ's work alone. God testified this in Christ's resurrection, that you also deny.

Quote:
John 8:24 'I said, therefore, unto you, that ye shall die in your sins; for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.
Yes, but it is God's will that all will believe, something you also do not believe in. Read 1 Tim 2:4-6

Quote:
You who claim to know the Gospel do not even understand that the heart of the Gospel is that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, based on His work on the Cross. It doesn't take works, But it Does take faith.
The Gospel proclaims justification in Christ alone. We are reckoned through faith when we believe. We are not declared righteous by our faith. This is getting old Mike...LOL

Quote:
And that faith comes from the one who hears the Gospel. God supplies the information through the Gospel. The Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer. The hearer then either responds to the Gospel message by exercising faith in Christ, or he rejects the Gospel and remains under condemnation. Faith in the sense of believing comes from the person. Not from God.
You have part of it right again, but not all of it. Both repentance and faith are gifts of God to us. Again, your inability to see this is based upon your Arminian doctrines that are not scriptural. They are a lie. Give 'em up. You'll be the better for it!

Quote:
In rejecting the clear Biblical declaration that a person must believe in Christ in order to be saved, that you must believe in Christ in order to be justified, you are at odds with the Word of God. You have made the Word of God to be a lie.
Nope, it's your lie that you've been proclaiming for a very long time. It's your lack of scriptural knowledge and understanding of the work of Christ on the cross.

Quote:
To those who don't know, this poster, alabamastorm believes in some variation of universalism. He denies personal responsibility in making a decision to believe in Christ. He denies that salvation is conditional on that act of faith in Christ. He falsely believes that everyone is justified at the Cross, and he ignores all the salvation passages that state with absolute crystal clarity, such as John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 8:24 and all the others, that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved.
Actually, I don't recall universalism entering into the discussion. However, if you do believe the Gospel, you will, in time, believe in that truth also...LOL And furthermore, I don't deny any passage of the bible that says those who are saved (regenerated from above) believe in the Gospel. As a matter of fact, I've stated it over and over that one cannot be regenerated, and believe in the Gospel, until faith has come. Now, regarding your doctrines of Arminianism, you cannot be regenerated and believe what you believe Mike. Arminianism does not believe the Gospel and neither do you my friend. Repent and believe the Gospel!!

Quote:
Universalism is a heinous heresy that denies the stated word of God that salvation is conditional. That it is contengent on faith in Christ.
Again, a denial of the Gospel and Christ's work alone on the cross for the sinner and also being sufficient for His salvation. Jesus said it is finished on the cross. Believe it!

Quote:
The faith is non-meritorious. The merit is in the object of your faith. In salvation the object of your faith is Jesus Christ. 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.' Acts 16:31
Again, a straw man raised by the doctrines of Arminianism. You believe that we are declared righteous by our faith. We are reckoned righteous through faith by grace. A big difference that you refuse to acknowledge because it does not agree with your doctrines.

Quote:
BEWARE OF UNIVERSALISM. IT IS NOT OF GOD. YOUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON YOU UNDERSTANDING THE ISSUE INVOLVED IN SALVATION. IF YOU REJECT THE TRUTH YOU WILL BE ETERNALLY LOST.
I would say beware of the doctrines of Arminianism that deny the work of Christ on the cross as being sufficient for salvation. I would say beware of Mikes gospel that does not proclaim the good news of Jesus.

I would also say for everyone who reads this thread to believe in the Gospel. Therein is the righteousness of God revealed, from faith to faith.

This is the worlds longest post. Please don't make me do this again...LOL

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-22-2009 at 02:22 PM.. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2009, 01:58 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,513 posts, read 10,841,403 times
Reputation: 4388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
. At the moment of faith in Christ, God imputes His perfect righteousness to the believer and then pronounces him justified.
Pick any congregation in the world and find me one perfected - they will be known by their works.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top