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Old 12-16-2009, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
And that's what I'm saying - salvation is of the Lord - what part can dead men play in it?
That's a no brainer.....NONE!!!!
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
There were two Lazarus?
As in: old man and new man. Romans Chapter 7.

Rom 7:24 A wretched man I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
And that's what I'm saying - salvation is of the Lord - what part can dead men play in it?
Well from the finite sense...none but scripture says it can. Do I put away scripture?
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Well from the finite sense...none but scripture says it can. Do I put away scripture?
Fundy...my little friend....if you don't believe God is absolutely sovereign in ALL things and I mean ALL things and that He is in total control over all that happens and that includes our supposed freewill......and if you truly believe that your puny human will can override Gods will....then yes....you should toss that book right into the trash bin because you really don't believe God is God.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:54 PM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Well from the finite sense...none but scripture says it can. Do I put away scripture?
No, we shouldn't; but I believe there's a "sovereign" slant to scripture...God rewards a man for being faithful, when it was God who gave him the heart to be faithful - and God chastens the disobedient, when scripture says they were made that way.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Fundy...my little friend....if you don't believe God is absolutely sovereign in ALL things and I mean ALL things and that He is in total control over all that happens and that includes our supposed freewill......and if you truly believe that your puny human will can override Gods will....then yes....you should toss that book right into the trash bin because you really don't believe God is God.
strawman......I never said none of that nor do I believe different but it is clear what I see in scripture which in my finite mind I don't understand so I attribute it to the sovereignty of God.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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God is absolutely soveriegn but He has chosen to give man freewill in all thing as an expression of His soveriegnty.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I don't understand the position people take that a person cannot be responsible for receiving Christ?
It's because of the word "responsible". I agree with you that there are things people must do to enter the kingdom of God. But to me "responsible" places to much emphasis (and credit when he does them) on man.

Quote:
...but the Bible also says that we are responsible for receiving Christ as Savior.
Does it say that? It says we must believe and follow Christ. Yes. But I don't know where it says we are responsible.

The disciples asked "who then can be saved" in respone to Jesus telling the rich young man to sell all in order to be perfect. Jesus said it was impossible for man but possible with God. So who is responsible for man when he does what is impossible for him? It must be God.

Jesus siad no one comes to Him unless the Father draws Him. And all whom the Father gives to Him come to Him. Doesn't that make God responsible for man coming to Christ?

Paul said that "I labored more than ye all... yet not I labored but the grace of God that was with me". Doesn't that make God's grace responsible for Paul's labors?

Maybe we have a different perception of the word "responsible".

Quote:
If we believe in Jesus Christ we will be saved. It's irrelevant who makes the first move, the question is does the individual do anything after God's saves them like confess, believe, repent, surrender, receive, put your trust in Christ.
Yes, I believe he does.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
And that's what I'm saying - salvation is of the Lord - what part can dead men play in it?
To me that's kind of like asking "What part did Jonah play in saving Nineveh". In the ultimate sense none. God saved them in spite of Jonah's will to run instead of testify. On the other hand God did use Jonah to save them. Jonah did have to testify since that was God's plan.

Paul does say "that I might save some" when we know that God really does the saving.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:53 PM
 
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Here is how it works.

John 6:44 says, ''No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him...''

Now, here is how the Father draws us.

2 Thess. 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.''

The only drawing, the only calling is through the Gospel message. The Gospel is presented to an unbeliever. Since the unbeliever is spiritually dead, he cannot understand spiritual phenomenon. The Gospel is spiritual phenomenon. Therefore, God the Holy Spirit takes up the slack and acts as a human spirit in order to make the Gospel understandable to the hearer. This is God's part of it. Now, at the point of understanding the Gospel, the unbeliever Must make a decision to either believe the message of the Gospel and therefore believe in Christ for salvation, or he must reject the Gospel message. This is man's part of it. Now, if he makes the decision to believe in Christ for salvation, then God the Holy Spirit takes the faith of this spiritually dead person and carries it to the point of salvation. The Holy Spirit makes the faith effective for salvation. This again, is God's part of it. It is not the faith which has merit. The merit is always in the object of the faith. The object of faith in salvation is Jesus Christ.

It is by God's Sovereign will, that man has free will. That is the reason why God created us in the first place. So that we could choose to have a relationship with Him. Or choose not to have a relationship with Him. God does not want robots. He wants His creation (man) to make a free will decision to have a relationship with Him.

In His Omniscience, God knew who would believe in Christ for salvation and who wouldn't. A subcategory of His Omniscience, is His foreknowledge. His foreknowledge is concerned with believers only.

Now, Romans 8:29 says, ''For whom He foreknew (those who would believe in Christ), He also predestined (we don't believe because we were predestined; rather we are predestined because God knew we would believe) to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30) And whom He predestined, these He also called (through the Gospel--2 Thess. 2:14) and whom He called, these He also justified, (at the moment of faith in Christ, God imputes His very own righteousness to the believer and then pronounces him justified), and whom He justified, these He also glorified (this has its ultimate fulfillment at the resurrection or rapture of the church.)

God's purpose (Romans 8:28) is to save those who answer the call of the Gospel.

So what about John 15:16? ''You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit...''

This is not a salvation passage. Jesus was speaking specifically to His apostles which He had chosen from among His disciples for the purpose of carrying out His work.

Compare John 15:16 with Luke 6:13. Also, see Matt. 10:2-4 and Mark 3:13-19, especally verse 14.

Luke 6:13, ''And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples; and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles.

Regarding election, C.I. Scofield writes,
quote
(5:13) Election, Summary: In both Testaments the Hebrew and Greek words are rendered ''elect,'' ''election,'' ''choose,'' ''chosen.'' In all cases thay mean, simply, chosen or to choose, and are used of both human and divine choices. (1) In the latter use election is: (a) corporate, as of the nation of Israel, or of the Church (Isa. 45:4; Eph. 1:4); and (b) individual (1 Pet. 1:2), (2) Election is according to the foreknowledge of God (1:2), and wholly by grace, apart from human merit (Rom. 9:11; 11:5-6). And (3) election proceeds from the divine volition (Jn.15:16).

Election is, therefore: (1) the sovereign act of God in grace whereby certain persons are chosen from among mankind for Himself (Jn. 15:19); and (2) the sovereign act of God whereby certain elect persons are chosen for distinctive service for Him (Lk. 6:13; Acts 9:15; 1 Cor. 1:27-28).
unquote
(New Scofield Reference Bible, footnote for 1 Peter 5:13, p. 1337)


God calls and man answers 'yes' or 'no'.
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