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Old 12-20-2009, 12:14 AM
 
366 posts, read 459,887 times
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I have a few questions.

(1) What does it really mean to say that "God alone saves"?

A relevant thought: Let's say I was drowning and a fisherman dove in, swam out to me, grabbed me and said, "easy thar big fella, just relax and I'll get you to shore." I then relaxed and stopped my struggling, and he saved me. I would then be an idiot to tell my friends later, "well, really, I had a hand in my rescue you know--it wasn't all that fisherman."

(2) What does it mean to say we have to believe in Christ to be saved?

"Belief" is a very tricky word. And it was just pointed out in another post that there are millions of people who lived and died and never had the opportunity to hear about Christ. And what about people who have only heard a distorted version of who Christ is (because they hear it only through a culture that is hostile to Christ)?

Um, I guess that's all my questions right now.
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Old 12-20-2009, 06:12 AM
 
6,220 posts, read 5,979,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
I have a few questions.

(1) What does it really mean to say that "God alone saves"?

A relevant thought: Let's say I was drowning and a fisherman dove in, swam out to me, grabbed me and said, "easy thar big fella, just relax and I'll get you to shore." I then relaxed and stopped my struggling, and he saved me. I would then be an idiot to tell my friends later, "well, really, I had a hand in my rescue you know--it wasn't all that fisherman."
With your analogy, you could claim some people might struggle and not want to be rescued by the fisherman... they want to do it on their own and end up drowning.

Here is a better analogy: you are unconscious on the bottom of the pool. The lifeguard dives in and pulls you out. In this scenario you can truly say you had no hand in your salvation, and you even had no opportunity to possibly "reject" your salvation (because you were essentially dead/unconscious at the bottom of the pool).

By definition the one being saved has no say in whether they are saved or not. That is why they need to be saved...
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,948,414 times
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It is our duty to bring the message home to them. Those who never have heard, and thus never have obeyed, the truth of the gospel message will be lost! And if we do not do our utmost to get that message to them—so will we! While the unevangelized may be lost, they do not have to remain lost. And we may be all that stands between them and an eternity of separation from God.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is precisely why it is our duty to get out there and preach! To increase His kingdom continually. His Zeal is within our hearts, and through that Zeal, we are commisioned, and it is our responsibility to perform this for Him. Tell people about Him!
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,283,099 times
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"that God alone saves,"

good qoute, also for Potterville, but does He save us alone or two at a Time?
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Old 12-20-2009, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,767,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
With your analogy, you could claim some people might struggle and not want to be rescued by the fisherman... they want to do it on their own and end up drowning.

Here is a better analogy: you are unconscious on the bottom of the pool. The lifeguard dives in and pulls you out. In this scenario you can truly say you had no hand in your salvation, and you even had no opportunity to possibly "reject" your salvation (because you were essentially dead/unconscious at the bottom of the pool).

By definition the one being saved has no say in whether they are saved or not. That is why they need to be saved...
I think both scenarios were very clear that even if the person struggles or rejects the rescue that they are in no position to determine what is good or what is bad. Like someone who is unable to determine which way is up when they are down so far. Human minds are fickle things.

When I was nearly drowning in a river with my son, I kept trying to propel him away from me into the shallow area but he just kept grabbing for me. In our haste to be saved sometimes we smother the salvation for ourselves. My son was pulled out of the water by a friend and I was able to swim to a shallow area but I will never forget that day.

It is God's will that you are saved. The scripture paints a picture of God saving men in the hour they need it most. I think then that God can and will save men in that very hour.

I thank God everyday for my little boy. If we don't have death to contemplate, we will never understand the joys of life.
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Old 12-20-2009, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,767,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It is our duty to bring the message home to them. Those who never have heard, and thus never have obeyed, the truth of the gospel message will be lost!
The truth will be lost? Would the truth be truth if it can be lost?

Can the truth of the gospel (salvation from slavery to sin) be lost?

The truth is you can be saved.
Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

1 Cor. 7:22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave.

Quote:
And if we do not do our utmost to get that message to them—so will we! While the unevangelized may be lost, they do not have to remain lost. And we may be all that stands between them and an eternity of separation from God.
You are saying that God can't evangelize for himself? Are you limiting God?
Why would anyone be eternally separated from God when his purpose is to bring all men to him?
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Old 12-20-2009, 02:59 PM
 
34,480 posts, read 22,142,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It is our duty to bring the message home to them. Those who never have heard, and thus never have obeyed, the truth of the gospel message will be lost! And if we do not do our utmost to get that message to them—so will we! While the unevangelized may be lost, they do not have to remain lost. And we may be all that stands between them and an eternity of separation from God.

This is precisely why it is our duty to get out there and preach! To increase His kingdom continually. His Zeal is within our hearts, and through that Zeal, we are commisioned, and it is our responsibility to perform this for Him. Tell people about Him!
This "commission" has been so egregiously abused and misapplied by too many Christians to let this call to keep it up go unchallenged. The Father calls through the Holy Spirit within and we respond or not. If we do . . . Jesus answers our questions. Our only responsibility as Christians is to model Jesus's love and witness our understanding . . . NOT harass, harangue, berate, judge, condemn, exhort using fear of damnation, or any other self-righteous activities based on OUR beliefs.
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,781,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This "commission" has been so egregiously abused and misapplied by too many Christians to let this call to keep it up go unchallenged. The Father calls through the Holy Spirit within and we respond or not. If we do . . . Jesus answers our questions. Our only responsibility as Christians is to model Jesus's love and witness our understanding . . . NOT harass, harangue, berate, judge, condemn, exhort using fear of damnation, or any other self-righteous activities based on OUR beliefs.
AMEN...the more we try to bash people over the heads with our bible doctrine and dogma....the more people run far away from us.....it just makes us look like idiots. The best way to witness is to show the Love of God to those we come in contact with....and I truly believe this is what the great commission IS ALL ABOUT!!
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,948,414 times
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What does "all in all" mean to you? This is a direct question to the UR crowd.

A - Is it talking about the church?
B - Is it talking about all people inside and outside the church?
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Old 12-20-2009, 06:22 PM
 
366 posts, read 459,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
With your analogy, you could claim some people might struggle and not want to be rescued by the fisherman... they want to do it on their own and end up drowning.

Here is a better analogy: you are unconscious on the bottom of the pool. The lifeguard dives in and pulls you out. In this scenario you can truly say you had no hand in your salvation, and you even had no opportunity to possibly "reject" your salvation (because you were essentially dead/unconscious at the bottom of the pool).

By definition the one being saved has no say in whether they are saved or not. That is why they need to be saved...
Hi legoman. Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure I agree (yet) that the analogy is more appropriately construed in terms of being unconscious, or as some have pointed out, that we are "dead in sin" (where dead is taken as literally as possible). We're not brain dead. We think. We are aware of our sin through the law. And so we are aware of our need. Or where do you think I'm going wrong?

In any case, you make me think of more questions. Consider:

First: Can a person lose his/her salvation?

If a person can lose salvation, how does this fit into the analogy? And if salvation can be lost, this would obviously be the work of human free will.

Second: When is someone actually saved? Is it after death? Is it in this life, the moment that Christ is accepted?

Christians--I'm one--often talk about "being saved", implying that they are saved at this very moment. But the final judgment has not occurred yet, so couldn't this be taken to mean that "I trust in Christ as my savior, that on the day of judgment, He will save me"? In other words, saying "I'm saved" just means "I will be saved; I trust in Christ." So maybe salvation could be seen as a life's work, rather than a singular moment in your history (though perhaps both can be made consistent). Just a thought.
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