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Old 12-20-2009, 07:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
Hi legoman. Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure I agree (yet) that the analogy is more appropriately construed in terms of being unconscious, or as some have pointed out, that we are "dead in sin" (where dead is taken as literally as possible). We're not brain dead. We think. We are aware of our sin through the law. And so we are aware of our need. Or where do you think I'm going wrong?

In any case, you make me think of more questions. Consider:

First: Can a person lose his/her salvation?

If a person can lose salvation, how does this fit into the analogy? And if salvation can be lost, this would obviously be the work of human free will.

Second: When is someone actually saved? Is it after death? Is it in this life, the moment that Christ is accepted?

Christians--I'm one--often talk about "being saved", implying that they are saved at this very moment. But the final judgment has not occurred yet, so couldn't this be taken to mean that "I trust in Christ as my savior, that on the day of judgment, He will save me"? In other words, saying "I'm saved" just means "I will be saved; I trust in Christ." So maybe salvation could be seen as a life's work, rather than a singular moment in your history (though perhaps both can be made consistent). Just a thought.

Eternal salvation occurs at the very moment of faith in Christ. The salvation of the body through resurrection is yet future and is assured. But the salvation of your soul is at the instant of faith in Christ and is eternally secure.

The final judgment of believers that you speak of is the judgment seat of Christ and has nothing to do with judgment of sin. It is a judgment of the believers works or spiritual production during his life on earth after salvation. The judgment seat or bema seat of Christ is for the purpose of rewarding the believer for his works that Christ determines to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones.' (1 Cor. 3:12:15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12).

1 John 5:13 says, ''These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.''

The word 'have' is the vi Pres Act 2 PL of 'ECHETE'. It means that as of the moment you believe in Christ you 'have, own, possess,' eternal life.

You cannot lose your salvation. You did nothing to earn your salvation; all you did was to believe in Christ, and so you can do nothing to maintain your salvation. Or to put it another way, you can't do anything to lose your salvation. It is absolutely impossible.

Regarding eternal security go to this link;

Eternal Security (http://jrcyouth.com/love24.htm - broken link)

Regarding the Great White Throne judgment of unbelievers at the end of the Millennium, these unbelievers have been resurrected out of Hades and are facing Jesus Christ who is their judge. They had rejected Him as Savior, and now face Him Who is about to cast them into the eternal lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15)
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Old 12-20-2009, 07:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Eternal salvation occurs at the very moment of faith in Christ. The salvation of the body through resurrection is yet future and is assured. But the salvation of your soul is at the instant of faith in Christ and is eternally secure.

The final judgment of believers that you speak of is the judgment seat of Christ and has nothing to do with judgment of sin. It is a judgment of the believers works or spiritual production during his life on earth after salvation. The judgment seat or bema seat of Christ is for the purpose of rewarding the believer for his works that Christ determines to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones.' (1 Cor. 3:12:15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12).

1 John 5:13 says, ''These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.''

The word 'have' is the vi Pres Act 2 PL of 'ECHETE'. It means that as of the moment you believe in Christ you 'have, own, possess,' eternal life.

You cannot lose your salvation. You did nothing to earn your salvation; all you did was to believe in Christ, and so you can do nothing to maintain your salvation. Or to put it another way, you can't do anything to lose your salvation. It is absolutely impossible.

Regarding eternal security go to this link;

Eternal Security (http://jrcyouth.com/love24.htm - broken link)

Regarding the Great White Throne judgment of unbelievers at the end of the Millennium, these unbelievers have been resurrected out of Hades and are facing Jesus Christ who is their judge. They had rejected Him as Savior, and now face Him Who is about to cast them into the eternal lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15)
Thanks. I'll keep thinking about it. Mind if I ask some really simply questions? What is salvation? What is one being save from (exactly), and what does one "receive" when one is saved?
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:37 PM
 
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Here is an interesting article regarding the OP

Reasonable Faith: Question 138 - Divine Sovereignty and Quantum Indeterminism
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:32 PM
 
20,252 posts, read 15,604,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
Thanks. I'll keep thinking about it. Mind if I ask some really simply questions? What is salvation? What is one being save from (exactly), and what does one "receive" when one is saved?
When a person is saved he enters into an eternal relationship with God. Salvation means that instead of spending eternity in the lake of fire, you spend eternity in the presence of God.

Because of the fact that God is infinitely Holy (Just and Righteous), He cannot have a relationship with anyone who does not have the same perfect holiness that He has. Man's relative righteousness does not measure up to God's perfect righteousness and so man is born into the world already condemned. And God cannot and will not compromise His perfection by entering into a relationship with sinful fallen man.

But God is a merciful God and full of grace. In grace He found a way to bring man into a relationship with Himself without compromising His perfect essence. That is what the Cross is all about. Because of the substitutionary spiritual death of Christ on the Cross, the barrier of sin and the penalty of sin that stood between man and God is taken away. But there is still the issue of man's relative righteousness versus God's absolute righteousness. That problem is solved at the moment of faith in Christ. At that point, God the Father imputes His very own righteousness to the new believer and then pronounces him justified.

So again, salvation is passing from death (eternal separation from God in the lake of fire) into eternal life in the presence of God.

As for what we receive at the point of salvation, take a look.

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:53 AM
 
366 posts, read 485,959 times
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Defining "salvation" as "having entered into an eternal relationship with God" is not specific enough. For everyone has an eternal relationship with God--yea, even those who are thrown into the lake of fire.

And I don't think I fully agree that the salvation is 'instantaneous'. I think faith (at least partially) is faith that you will be saved. Faith is trusting in Christ that He will save you from the punishment of sin. And I think you can experience this salvation here, as something of a "foretaste" of what is to come. But the salvation itself I thinks comes later. A few more things I think I believe:

God is fully sovereign.

We have free will.

God is fully responsible for our salvation.

We are free to reject God's grace in salvation.


I don't know how these fit together. But they do.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:18 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,537,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What does "all in all" mean to you? This is a direct question to the UR crowd.

A - Is it talking about the church?
B - Is it talking about all people inside and outside the church?
Many will debate that God can subdue all things unto Himself, but He won't. That simply isn't what scripture says - after the inconvenient passages about all dying in Adam and the same all being alive in Christ - but each in his own order, which frustrates those who think God is stuck in the same time frame they themselves are - comes the passage you refer to:

Quote:
Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:24-28)
Looks to me like the Father is the final vacuum, in which the entire creation + His Son will be brought into Himself. Now, God is a consuming fire, so it is very likely that we'll all be subjected to the Heat.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What does "all in all" mean to you? This is a direct question to the UR crowd.

A - Is it talking about the church?
B - Is it talking about all people inside and outside the church?
I say B, although once all mankind is subjected to Christ, all mankind will be the seed of Abraham, all will be members His church.
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:27 PM
 
20,252 posts, read 15,604,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
Defining "salvation" as "having entered into an eternal relationship with God" is not specific enough. For everyone has an eternal relationship with God--yea, even those who are thrown into the lake of fire.

And I don't think I fully agree that the salvation is 'instantaneous'. I think faith (at least partially) is faith that you will be saved. Faith is trusting in Christ that He will save you from the punishment of sin. And I think you can experience this salvation here, as something of a "foretaste" of what is to come. But the salvation itself I thinks comes later. A few more things I think I believe:

God is fully sovereign.

We have free will.

God is fully responsible for our salvation.

We are free to reject God's grace in salvation.


I don't know how these fit together. But they do.
To the contrary. Only those who believe in Christ for salvation have a relationship with God. That is the entire issue in salvation. Those who are in the lake of fire are there because they chose Not to have a relationship with God. That is why Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 ''Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22) ''Many will say to Me on that day, ''Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perofrm many miracles?'' 23) ''And then I will declare to them, ''I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.''


I'll put it another way. Salvation means justification. Justification is the opposite of condemnation. God is absolute perfect righteousness and He demands absolute perfect righteousness in His creatures. But man has only relative righteousness. Therefore man does not qualify for a relationship with God. God can not and will not compromise His essence, His integrity, His holiness, by entering into a relationship with sinful fallen man. But because of His love, God provided the means by which He can bring sinful man into a relationship with Him. And that way is by means of the Cross.

Justification is a legal term. It is the judicial act of God by which He pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ and counts them, accepts them, treats them as righteous in the eyes of the law. We don't stand before God based on our own righteousness. We stand before God based on what He did for us at the moment of salvation. When we believe in Christ, God imputes His very own perfect righteousness to us and pronounces us justified.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal. 3:6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned (counted) to him as righteousness.


Justification is God making a declaration that we are justified based on the righteousness that He imputed to us when we were born again. It is a pardon.

In addition to the pardon of sin, justification declares that all claims of the Law are satisfied in respect of the justified. The law is not relaxed, or set aside, but declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense. This is salvation.

Through faith in Christ we pass from death into life through an eternal relationship with Him on the basis of justification.

Those who reject Christ as Savior, do not receive the righteousness of God and are therefore not justified, and as a result, they remain under comdemnation for eternity. No relationship with God.


I have already provided the verse that shows that salvation is instantaneous. It declares salvation to be in the present tense. Not something that is future. And the reason that salvation is instantaneous is because of justification. We are justified at the moment we believe in Christ as a result of a judicial imputation of God's own righteousness to us.


I suggest you study carefully the material in the link I provided. It lists and describes some forty things that God does for the believer at the moment of salvation.

It is by God's sovereign will that man has free will. God did all the work necessary in providing salvation and offers salvation as a free gift to those who believe in Christ. Man can choose to either accept the offer or refuse the offer. Those who accept the offer are born again into the royal family of God (Eph. 2; Col. 1:13; 2 Cor. 5:17). Those who reject the offer remain under condemnation and belong to their father, the devil (John 8:44).



Col. 1:13 'For He delivered us form the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14) in Whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold new things have come.

I hope this helps.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:29 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,396,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
Hi legoman. Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure I agree (yet) that the analogy is more appropriately construed in terms of being unconscious, or as some have pointed out, that we are "dead in sin" (where dead is taken as literally as possible). We're not brain dead. We think. We are aware of our sin through the law. And so we are aware of our need. Or where do you think I'm going wrong?

In any case, you make me think of more questions. Consider:

First: Can a person lose his/her salvation?

If a person can lose salvation, how does this fit into the analogy? And if salvation can be lost, this would obviously be the work of human free will.

Second: When is someone actually saved? Is it after death? Is it in this life, the moment that Christ is accepted?

Christians--I'm one--often talk about "being saved", implying that they are saved at this very moment. But the final judgment has not occurred yet, so couldn't this be taken to mean that "I trust in Christ as my savior, that on the day of judgment, He will save me"? In other words, saying "I'm saved" just means "I will be saved; I trust in Christ." So maybe salvation could be seen as a life's work, rather than a singular moment in your history (though perhaps both can be made consistent). Just a thought.
Think about the definition of salvation, savior, or being saved. By definition, the one who needs to be saved, cannot save themselves. That is why they need a savior in the first place, because they cannot save themself.

Savior: a savior is someone who saves. If Jesus has the title "savior of all men", then that means He must save all men. If He doesn't save all men, then He is not the savior of all men. If two kids are drowning in the pool, and the lifeguard is only able to save one kid, then the lifeguard is not the savior of both kids - only the one he actually saved. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

Now is it fair to say one could reject their salvation? Think about this. Why would anyone do this, if they truly realize they need to be saved? Does a lifeguard stop to ask a drowning kid to see if he wants to be saved? What if the kid is not even able to respond? What does a savior (a lifeguard in this case) do?

Does God intend to save everyone? Does God intend something that He knows will not happen? That would be foolish, and would bring into question God's all-powerful and all-knowing nature.

Now to your questions:
1. Can someone "lose" their salvation? NO. If God intends to save someone, and they end up not being saved, then God has failed.

I believe God will save everyone He intends to save. Would God save someone and then simply let that person turn around and throw the salvation away? How do you "throw salvation away" anyways? Once you are saved, you are secure and protected, removed from the threat. If you are not protected and still in danger then perhaps you are not saved - yet.

2. This ties into your second question: When are we actually saved? What are we saved from? We are saved from sin and the wages of sin. If we are still sinning (and we all will be till we die), then we are not quite saved - yet. I believe salvation is a process, that will not be completed until God says its completed. This may be at death, or after, or maybe even before death.

But God has said He desires to save all mankind. He intends to do it. Will God fulfill His intention, or not?
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Little Elmer and Thy Kingdom Come,

Thank you for your answers, but the choice was part A:

Let me explain and expand on 1 Cor 15, this is a study I posted as few days ago and will repost here:

In denying the resurrection of the pre-Christian saints, or of the old covenant Israel, the resurrection of the dead deniers were denying not the fact of the resurrection, but the "all-ness" of the resurrection and and the "all-ness" of Christ's atoning work. They denied that Christ died for "all", and therefore they denied that "all" would be raised. Though they agreed with Paul that Christ had died for "our" - the eschatological church's sins - 1 Corinthians 15:3,11, they denied that Christ had died for the sins of "the dead".

Contrary to their doctrine, the resurrection of Christ was not the beginning of the resurrection of the last days church only. It was also the beginning of the resurrection of the great cloud of saints, the "dead" and "them that slept", who had come and gone before the advent of the last days church. Christ became the "first fruits" of the eschatological church and the Hadean saints "out from among" whom He had been raised - 1 Cor 15:55; Rev 1:5.

His resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of "all" the saints who were dead "in ADAM" - 1 Cor 15:20, not merely of the eschatological church. As all the saints, Christian and Pre-Christian, had been condemned and alienated from God - ie. had DIED, in Adam through sin - Gen 2:17; Rom 7:9, so "all" were going to be raised up in "the Christ", the second "Man" the savior of "the World" - 1 Cor 15:21-22.

Because Christians were "of Christ", and because Christ was the "First Fruit" of the resurrection -1 Cor 15:23, Christians were, in Him, "first fruits" of the "first fruits". The resurrection of Christians "in His Paruosia", therefore, was not to be the consummation of the life giving reign of Christ - 1 Cor 15:22-24 - as the resurrection of the dead deniers supposed. the eschatological church's resurrection in "Christ the First Fruits" was instead the beginning of the end of the resurrection harvest, and was to be followed by "the end", or "consummation", which was the resurrection of the dead...ie, the death of Death (the abolition of the alienation of God's people form Him)- when "all" the elect became the habitation of the life-giving Spirit through the gospel - John 5:25;1 Cor 15:24-28; Rev 20:5-6.

Christ, through the Holy Spirit, was not reigning in the Spirit-indwelt, eschatological church merely so tha the church by itself would attain unto the resurrection and inherit the kingdom. he was reigning in the church sop that the historic kingdom would, IN HIM, be "universalized" in and brought under the rule od "the God and Father" of "all" the saints - 1 Cor 15:24. The Adamic saints were not going to be left unredeemed from the "rule", "authority", and "power" of Satan, Sin, Death, and Condemnation. Rather, the Father was going to place all those kingdom-enemies under the feet of Christ, and Christ was going to "abolish" or "annul" them all.

He was already in process of abolishing the last and greatest kingdom-enemy, Death itself, through the kingdom-transforming, kingdom-universalizing, work of the Cross and the indwelling Holy Spirit - 1 Cor 15:26

"all things", or literally "the all things", the cosmic body of Sin and Death, were going to be subjected to Christ, and changed - Phil 3:21 - in the Father, by the power of the Father, and under the authority of the Father, so that all the enemies would be done away with; so that all of the Father's elect, from Adam to AD 70, would be made alive in Christ; so tha the universal church would become the habitation of the triune God, so that He would become "all things in all" - 1 Cor 15:28, or "he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God" - Rev 21:3

This prophetic word spoken by the prophets and apostles has been completed, and from AD 70 onward, no prophecy or prophetic word after that, is not from God himself, but only from the imaginations of men.
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