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Old 12-21-2009, 01:36 PM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is by God's sovereign will that man has free will.
If One has sovereign will, then nothing else can have "free" will. If One sovereignly acts in accordance with His will - which He does (Eph 1:11), then that will counter all things in opposition to His will.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
If One has sovereign will, then nothing else can have "free" will. If One sovereignly acts in accordance with His will - which He does (Eph 1:11), then that will counter all things in opposition to His will.
The fact that God is sovereign does not mean that He has to impose His sovereignty on those to whom He gave free will. Man's point of contact with God is not the sovereignty of God, but rather, mans point of contact with God is God's justice.

It is the justice of God that provides salvation for man. Not His sovereignty. In satisfying the demands of His justice in providing salvation, it pleased God to give man free will, just as He had given the angels free will. Man's free will is the very issue in the angelic conflict. God is demonstating to the angels that there are some members of the human race who will respond to God's provision, His offer, of salvation by believing in Christ. And therefore, showing that the angels who rebelled against God are without excuse, and that God is Just and Righteous in sentencing Satan to the lake of fire.

Never heard of the Angelic Conflict? Do some research on it. It is the spiritual warfare in which we are involved. Aside from the fact that God created man for His pleasure, we are here to resolve the Angelic conflict.

Every time you see a salvation passage;

John 3:16 ''...whosoever believes in Him...''

John 3:18 ''He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

and all of the other passages that say you must make a decision to believe, that is free will. That is volition.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:43 PM
 
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"making a decision" does not equal "free will"
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
If One has sovereign will, then nothing else can have "free" will. If One sovereignly acts in accordance with His will - which He does (Eph 1:11), then that will counter all things in opposition to His will.
You are forgetting some things, little elmer . . . it is God's sovereign will that we have free will AND Dominion. God does NOT renege. The ONLY WAY He could intervene without violating His own sovereign will was to become one of us (Jesus) . . . but He could intervene directly only while Jesus walked as a man. We still have free will AND Dominion . . . and now we also have Jesus available to us all as the Holy Spirit within.
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:15 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,541,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The fact that God is sovereign does not mean that He has to impose His sovereignty on those to whom He gave free will. Man's point of contact with God is not the sovereignty of God, but rather, mans point of contact with God is God's justice.
It's easy to see that God answers man's disobedience with justice; Noah's flood would case #1. But let us look for evidence where God acted sovereignly against man's free will, without a judicial motive: Saul of Tarsus' journey was not just interrupted, but His intended course was reversed and his complete identity was changed through revelation.

But let us refer to scripture: "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16).

But some may reply, Did not Joshua say to Israel, "Choose you this day whom ye will serve"? Yes, he did; but why not complete his sentence -"whether the gods which your fathers served which were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell" (Josh. 24:15)! But why attempt to pit Scripture against Scripture? The Word of God never contradicts itself, and the Word expressly declares, "There is none that seeketh after God" (Rom. 3:11). Did not Christ say to the men of His day "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40)? Yes, but some did "come" to Him, some did receive Him. True - and who were they? John 1:12, 13 tells us: "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is the justice of God that provides salvation for man. Not His sovereignty.
"Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory?" These verses represent fallen mankind as inert and as impotent as a lump of lifeless clay. This Scripture evidences that there is "no difference," in themselves, between the elect and the non-elect; they are clay of "the same lump," which agrees with Ephesians 2:3, where we are told that all are by nature "children of wrath."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Every time you see a salvation passage;

John 3:16 ''...whosoever believes in Him...''

John 3:18 ''He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

and all of the other passages that say you must make a decision to believe, that is free will. That is volition.
I like what A.W.Pink (The Sovereignty of God) says about the subject:
Quote:

The hardest thing of all, perhaps, is to maintain the balance of truth. It is largely a matter of perspective. That God is Sovereign is explicitly declared in Scripture: that man is a responsible creature is also expressly affirmed in Holy Writ. To define the relationship of these two truths, to fix the dividing line betwixt them, to show exactly where they meet, to exhibit the perfect consistency of the one with the other, is the weightiest task of all. Many have openly declared that it is impossible for the finite mind to harmonize them. Others tell us it is not necessary or even wise to attempt it.
What I would add to that is that though man is indeed held accountable, his attitude - and thus his actions - is altered by a Will stronger than his.
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:59 PM
 
20,265 posts, read 15,615,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
It's easy to see that God answers man's disobedience with justice; Noah's flood would case #1. But let us look for evidence where God acted sovereignly against man's free will, without a judicial motive: Saul of Tarsus' journey was not just interrupted, but His intended course was reversed and his complete identity was changed through revelation.

But let us refer to scripture: "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16).

But some may reply, Did not Joshua say to Israel, "Choose you this day whom ye will serve"? Yes, he did; but why not complete his sentence -"whether the gods which your fathers served which were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell" (Josh. 24:15)! But why attempt to pit Scripture against Scripture? The Word of God never contradicts itself, and the Word expressly declares, "There is none that seeketh after God" (Rom. 3:11). Did not Christ say to the men of His day "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40)? Yes, but some did "come" to Him, some did receive Him. True - and who were they? John 1:12, 13 tells us: "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"...



"Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory?" These verses represent fallen mankind as inert and as impotent as a lump of lifeless clay. This Scripture evidences that there is "no difference," in themselves, between the elect and the non-elect; they are clay of "the same lump," which agrees with Ephesians 2:3, where we are told that all are by nature "children of wrath."




I like what A.W.Pink (The Sovereignty of God) says about the subject:


What I would add to that is that though man is indeed held accountable, his attitude - and thus his actions - is altered by a Will stronger than his.
Certainly God disciplines disobedience. God holds man responsible for what he does with his free will.

God made the decision in eternity past as to who He would select to be born into the human race. (That may sound like I'm saying that we pre-existed our physical birh, but I'm not saying that at all.) What I am saying is that in eternity past God knew who would and who would not believe in Christ once that person was born. And God made the decision to let be born those who He knew would die without ever believing in Christ and so be condemned to the eternal lake of fire. Now, God did not cause one person to be an unbeliever and another person to be a believer. He simply allowed each man's free will to play out in accordance to the workings of that man's nature.

God does bring about circumstances in a persons life that will bring out what is in them. In other words, God knows one person will harden his heart to the circumstances that God brings about. The Pharaoh for instance when confronted with the plagues in Egypt. God used the negitive volition of Pharaoh to achieve His purpose. But He didn't cause Pharoh to harden his heart. When it says that God hardened Pharoahs heart (Ex. 14:4) that simply means that God knew how Pharoah would react to the circumstance that God brought about. God didn't make or force Pharoah to act as He did. I mean that God didn't reach down and flip a switch in Pharoahs heart to harden it. He simply brought about the circumstances that would bring out what was already in Pharoahs heart.

On the other hand, God knew that Saul of Tarsus/Paul would believe in Christ as a result of the vision or appearance of the resurrected Christ on the Damascus road. He didn't make Saul of Tarsus believe in Christ. He simply knew that Paul would believe when Christ appeared to him.

In reference to Romans 3:11 'There is none who seeks for God,''

Indeed, the Bible does not contradict itself. Ever.

And yet, what does it say in Jeremiah 29:13, '' And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.''

Well, Romans 3:11 is a quotation of Psalms 14:2 and Psalms 53:2. It is an indictment count against all mankind of an internal disordered heart. Paul is stating that by nature, all people are without exception under the power and authority of sin.

But Jeremiah 29:13 makes it clear that man can seek God.

God has done all the work necessary in making salvation possible, and He has extended the offer of salvation to mankind. And He places the responsibility on us to make a choice to accept or reject the offer.

God will work His purpose without violating mans free will regarding salvation. God simply has the ability to use man's volition, whether positive or negitive, to achieve His ends.

But God will never reach into the soul of a man and flip a switch so that one man believes and another man does not believe.

Because it is God's will (desire) that all men be saved. 1 Tim. 2:3-4 ''This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And yet, many people will not be saved. Matthew 7:13 ''Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14) ''For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life and few are those who find it.

Matthew 7:22 ''Many will say to Me on that day, ''Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? 23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''

So, one the one hand, God desires all men to be saved, and on the other hand, many or most people will not be saved. And it is because man has God given free will to make the choice.
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:18 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,441,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
If One has sovereign will, then nothing else can have "free" will. If One sovereignly acts in accordance with His will - which He does (Eph 1:11), then that will counter all things in opposition to His will.
I agree wholeheartedly Elmer but that is exactly what scipture alludes to. It makes no sense to me but it's in scripture. Why try to rationalize it or make sense of it Elmer?

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-21-2009 at 08:29 PM..
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
"making a decision" does not equal "free will"
That's not really the point. The point is scripture says it does. I don't know how nor can I harmonize it but it's in scripture.
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Certainly God disciplines disobedience. God holds man responsible for what he does with his free will.
It is not an obedience/disobedience issue. It is a success/failure issue in achieving our spiritual purpose. There are consequences to both and that is what produces the discipline. Now pay attention Mike . . . discipline only exists to achieve a change and get a different outcome (or it is pointless and not discipline at all.) Discipline is completely incompatible with any ETERNAL consequence because it precludes any change in outcome.
Quote:
God made the decision in eternity past as to who He would select to be born into the human race. (That may sound like I'm saying that we pre-existed our physical birh, but I'm not saying that at all.) What I am saying is that in eternity past God knew who would and who would not believe in Christ once that person was born. And God made the decision to let be born those who He knew would die without ever believing in Christ and so be condemned to the eternal lake of fire. Now, God did not cause one person to be an unbeliever and another person to be a believer. He simply allowed each man's free will to play out in accordance to the workings of that man's nature.
God makes no such selection. In fact, as Jesus He selected us ALL and His Holy Spirit is within each of us. We heed this inner urging (call of the Father) or not depending on our spiritual development . . . NOT what specific beliefs we are told we must accept to be a Christian (whether or not our inner guide finds them acceptable). God is interested in our true inner motivations and love . . . not some externally professed beliefs for the acceptance and consumption of others.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Understand this. No one is justified at the Cross. No one is justified until they believe in Christ for salvation. Salvation in the Bible means justification. You are not saved until you make a decision to believe in Christ.

Rom. 4:5 ''But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned (counted) as righteousness.

At the point that a person believes in Christ, God imputes His righteousness to that person. God sees His righteousness in him, and then pronounces him justified.
[personal attack] [/mod]
In Abraham's case, God declared that Abraham's descendants would be numbered more than the stars in the heavens. Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. In like manner for us, when we believe that God declares righteous the impious,or rather: Him who justifies the ungodly (the work of Christ as proclaimed in the Gospel) it is reckoned to us as righteousness.

Moderator cut: personal attack

Moderator cut: personal attack
Those that need to "make a decision" do not believe in the Gospel. If they did believe God, and what He declared, namely: that He declares righteous (Justifies) the impious (the ungodly), they would not need to make a decision regarding it. Paul uses Abraham as our example. Did Abraham "make a decision" to believe? Of course not. Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Did God tell Abraham to "make a decision"? Of course not. God declared a truth and Abraham believed it. So should you!

Mike555 quote: "No one is justified at the Cross."

Moderator cut: personal attack

Mat 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Repent and believe in the Gospel (Mark 1:15)

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-22-2009 at 06:25 AM.. Reason: you may attack ideas but not the person
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