How does God's sovereignty and free will work together in salvation? (beliefs, dogma)

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

Let's go over this one step at a time. So that we do not confuse words, I'll use your NASV (1977 ed.)...OK? Actually the NASV keeps revising their text. The newer editions use the word counted in stead of reckoned, so keep that in mind if you're using a newer version...LOL. (For your info: The YLT uses the literal rendering declared righteous for the NASV term Justified.)
We are Justified by Christ alone at the cross and in His resurrection. It is known as the Gospel. It is not by our faith that we are justified.

To the contrary. A man believes in Christ and as a result, God imputes His righteousness to that man, and then pronounces him justified. (Romans 10:10)

Romans 10:10 'for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness.

Let's look at the two Greek words that distinguish between the act of being Justified and the act of being Reckoned, with that Justification:

The Greek word for Justified in the NASV is:
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō; from G1342; to show to be righteous, declare righteous

and also:

G1347
δικαίωσις
dikaiōsis; from G1344; the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal

The Greek word to Reckon in the NASV is:
G3049
λογίζομαι
logizomai; from G3056 (in the sense of an account or reckoning); to reckon, to consider

We are Justified by God on the merits of Christ's work alone:

Rom 4:25 He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. (NASV G1347).

We are, or will be, Reckoned righteous, through faith, in time:

Rom 4:23 Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned (NASV G3049) to him,
Rom 4:24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, (NASV G3049) as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

Now look....this is what is important:

Rom 8:30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified (NASV 1344), these He also glorified.

Those Justified are done so on the merits of Christ's work alone. It is not by our faith that we are Justified. And those that are Justified on the merits of Christ's work will be glorified.

Before moving on, can we at least agree on this part? Do you see the difference between being Justified and being Reckoned with that Justification?

There is no distinction between being Justified and being 'Reckoned' with that justification. Justification occurs at the point that God imputes His righteousness to the person who has believed in Christ for salvation. God sees His righteousness in that person and pronounces him justified. As a result, that person is saved.

Romans 10:10 says, 'for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

As I have always said, it is through faith in Christ that we are saved. And as I have always said, there is no merit in faith. The merit is in the object of your faith. The object of your faith in salvation, is Jesus Christ.



We are not justified until God imputes His righteousness to us at the point of faith in Christ. Until a person makes the decision to believe in Christ for salvation, nothing that Christ did on the Cross, is applied to that person.

This is why Christ said in John 8:24, ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''

That means that if you do not believe in Christ for salvation, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

The work of Christ on the Cross removed sin as a barrier between man and God. Where the barrier of sin once stood, there is a line that each person must decide whether or not he is going to walk over that line through a non meritorious act of faith in Christ.

That is precisely the reason that John 3:16 says ''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.''

Christ went to the Cross for the entire world. He died for the sins of the entire world. BUT salvation is only applied to 'WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM.''

And that is why John 3:18 says, ''He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.''

And that is why Acts 16:31 says, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.''

And that is why John 20:31 says ''but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

And that is why John 3:36 says, ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

1 Corinthians 1:21, ''For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1 John 5:11-12 ''And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12) He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...

Only those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life. Only those who make a decision to believe in Christ have the Son. I have given nine verses that make that clear.

We are not justified until God imputes His righteousness to us at the point of faith in Christ. When a person expresses faith in Christ, God imputes His righteousness to that person, and then is able to pronounce that person, justified. If we were justified apart from faith in Christ, then there would be no requirement from God for us to make a volitional choice to believe in Christ. Salvation would be universal. Salvation is Not universal. Salvation is conditional. It is contingent upon an act of non-meritorious faith in Christ who is the object of that faith.

Romans 8:28...to those who are called according to His purpose.

2 Thess 2:14 makes it clear that God calls man through the Gospel.

2 Thess 2:13 ...because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ..''

It is God's purpose to call man through the Gospel so that man may be saved, and gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess 2:14) And IF a man answers that call of God by means of the Gospel, through faith in the truth--by believing in Christ, ( 2 Thess 2:13), then he will be justified through faith in the truth.

Romans 8:28 ...''to those who are called according to His purpose. 29) For whom He foreknew (foreknowledge is that aspect of God's omniscience that is concerned with believers only--God knew who would believe in Christ for salvation), He also predestined (Eph. 1:5) to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called (through the Gospel); and whom He called, These He also justified (only those who answer the call through faith in Christ are justified); and whom He justified, these He also glorified.( Ultimate glorification will occur with the rapture.)

By comparing Romans 8:28-30, with 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and having an understanding of what the various terms mean, a clear picture can be seen as it relates to God's soverignty, and mans free will.

Now, the reason that the NASV keeps revising its text is because scholars and language experts keep increasing their understanding of the original languges. This better understanding of the original languages requires a revision in the text so that a more accurate translation can be had. This is a good thing. The NASV is recognized by most scholars as being the most literal English Translation that there is. It is generally, although it too has its problems, faithful to the original languages. No honest scholar will deny this.

The King James, while it is generally a good translation, is mired in the past, with archaic 17th century King James English. It is also based on an inferior manuscript called the Textus Receptus. You should read the history of how it came to be.

That's it people. I have said what I have to say. I do not want to get bogged down into endless back and forth arguments with people who have no intention of listening anyway. What I have presented is doctrinally correct. You will have to decide whether you believe it or not.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by Mike555

To the contrary. A man believes in Christ and as a result, God imputes His righteousness to that man, and then pronounces him justified. (Romans 10:10)

Romans 10:10 'for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness.

Yes, that is known as reckoning, not justification. Here is a more literal translation to help you:

Rom 10:10 for with the heart doth one believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;

There is no distinction between being Justified and being 'Reckoned' with that justification. Justification occurs at the point that God imputes His righteousness to the person who has believed in Christ for salvation. God sees His righteousness in that person and pronounces him justified. As a result, that person is saved.

Romans 10:10 says, 'for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

That's what you don't quite get. The Gospel is the work of Christ alone. It is at the cross and in the resurrection that we are Justified by God. That's the Gospel you don't see yet. I don't say this to be critical, I say it with truth and sincerity.

As I have always said, it is through faith in Christ that we are saved. And as I have always said, there is no merit in faith. The merit is in the object of your faith. The object of your faith in salvation, is Jesus Christ.

Actually, it matters what God says. God has said we are justified by Christ alone. Not by our faith. If you do not believe this you do not believe the Gospel.

We are not justified until God imputes His righteousness to us at the point of faith in Christ. Until a person makes the decision to believe in Christ for salvation, nothing that Christ did on the Cross, is applied to that person.

Declaring and imputing are two distinct acts of God. Declaring occurs at the cross, imputing occurs through faith given to us by grace.

This is why Christ said in John 8:24, ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''

That means that if you do not believe in Christ for salvation, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

The work of Christ on the Cross removed sin as a barrier between man and God. Where the barrier of sin once stood, there is a line that each person must decide whether or not he is going to walk over that line through a non meritorious act of faith in Christ.

Removed sin as a barrier? This is not scriptural. You'll need to go back and read the Gospel my friend.

That is precisely the reason that John 3:16 says ''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.''

Christ went to the Cross for the entire world. He died for the sins of the entire world. BUT salvation is only applied to 'WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM.''

And that is why John 3:18 says, ''He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.''

And that is why Acts 16:31 says, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.''

And that is why John 20:31 says ''but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

And that is why John 3:36 says, ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

1 Corinthians 1:21, ''For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1 John 5:11-12 ''And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12) He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...

Of course, but your talking about the reckoning of righteousness to us by faith given to us by grace in the new birth (regeneration). These verses all speak to the fruit or results of our having been declared righteous by God at the cross. That's why we're having this discussion. Of course one must believe to have eternal life. That's not open for debate. But it is not our believing that justifies us before God. It is Christ's work alone that justified us.

Only those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life. Only those who make a decision to believe in Christ have the Son. I have given nine verses that make that clear.

Decisional regeneration is not scriptural. This is the false Gospel you've been proclaiming.

We are not justified until God imputes His righteousness to us at the point of faith in Christ. When a person expresses faith in Christ, God imputes His righteousness to that person, and then is able to pronounce that person, justified. If we were justified apart from faith in Christ, then there would be no requirement from God for us to make a volitional choice to believe in Christ. Salvation would be universal. Salvation is Not universal. Salvation is conditional. It is contingent upon an act of non-meritorious faith in Christ who is the object of that faith.

We are justified at the cross by Christ alone. That is the Gospel I keep telling you about. It's the Good News. Until you see this you'll continue to proclaim a false Gospel based upon choices and decisions that the sinner makes rather than what Christ accomplished for us at the cross.

Romans 8:28

...to those who are called according to His purpose.

2 Thess 2:14 makes it clear that God calls man through the Gospel.

2 Thess 2:13 ...because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ..''

It is God's purpose to call man through the Gospel so that man may be saved, and gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess 2:14) And IF a man answers that call of God by means of the Gospel, through faith in the truth--by believing in Christ, ( 2 Thess 2:13), then he will be justified through faith in the truth.

Romans 8:28 ...''to those who are called according to His purpose. 29) For whom He foreknew (foreknowledge is that aspect of God's omniscience that is concerned with believers only--God knew who would believe in Christ for salvation), He also predestined (Eph. 1:5) to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called (through the Gospel); and whom He called, These He also justified (only those who answer the call through faith in Christ are justified); and whom He justified, these He also glorified.( Ultimate glorification will occur with the rapture.)

By comparing Romans 8:28-30, with 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and having an understanding of what the various terms mean, a clear picture can be seen as it relates to God's soverignty, and mans free will.

Of course God calls through the Gospel. How else would he call us? But again, you continue to add to God's word to shape and form it into your preconceived doctrines and precepts of men. Why don't you let it speak for itself? Is it not in agreement with your doctrines?

Now, the reason that the NASV keeps revising its text is because scholars and language experts keep increasing their understanding of the original languges. This better understanding of the original languages requires a revision in the text so that a more accurate translation can be had. This is a good thing. The NASV is recognized by most scholars as being the most literal English Translation that there is. It is generally, although it too has its problems, faithful to the original languages. No honest scholar will deny this.

...LOL The NASB keeps revising the translation because they can't get it right. They never could. They also keep moving away from a literal word for word translation. The scriptures have not changed, trust me. Only the translations.

The King James, while it is generally a good translation, is mired in the past, with archaic 17th century King James English. It is also based on an inferior manuscript called the Textus Receptus. You should read the history of how it came to be.

Yes, I've read the history in detail. I would suggest you also read from those critical of the modern translations to get a better perspective on why the Majority Text or Received Text (Textus Receptus) is the preferred text and has been up until recently (1850 or so). The modern translations are a lot like the world, they only get worse..LOL

That's it people. I have said what I have to say. I do not want to get bogged down into endless back and forth arguments with people who have no intention of listening anyway. What I have presented is doctrinally correct. You will have to decide whether you believe it or not.

Please repent and believe in the Gospel Mike. You'll do both yourself and your listeners a big favor. I'll pray for you --- Alabama

[Thy Kingdom Come]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

2 QUESTIONS.

1) If no responsibility falls on the individual, then why the need for correction?

To get us off the wrong path and on to the right path.

2) If God is the one that saves and the individual has no choice, then why do we appeal to the individual too and not just God? why even share our faith?

The invididual does have a choice.

And whether I disagree with "responsible" would depend on exactly what you mean by it.

[MysticPhD]

The unspoken assumptions that are added to these ideas are what confuse the discourse. God is sovereign . . . that does not obligate Him in any way to ACT on it. IF there were ANY compulsions or requirements attached to His sovereignty He wouldn't BE sovereign. He gave us free will AND Dominion. It is His sovereign will that WE be in control of this world, period. He knew that because of our free will and Dominion NONE of us would be able to achieve the state of perfection of mind necessary to be united with Him . . . so He let us know He would send us a Saviour to do it for us via inspired prophesies. Then:

He incarnated as a HUMAN in Jesus;

Showed us His TRUE NATURE to correct the wrong impressions from the veil of ignorance over reading the OT;

Taught us the true purpose of the earlier laws with His two commandments of "Love God and each other;"

Fulfilled the prophesies He knew had to occur because of our savagery and ignorance at great personal suffering and sacrifice;

Showed that we need not fear physical death by His rebirth as Spirit in a spiritual body (that can mimic our human one); and

Left His Holy Spirit in contact with all of us for comfort and guidance for the understanding God has "written in our hearts."

[Thy Kingdom Come]

Fundy,

Just to clarify my issue with the word "responsible", here are the first two defintions listed from Meriam Webster.

1a : liable to be called on to answer
b (1) : liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent

Yes we are liable to be called on to answer and give account for whether we follow Christ or not. No we are not the primary cause of our salvation or even of our following Christ. God is the primary cause. We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

[The Matrix]

Howdy,

Very interesting topic. It seems more than a few people here want to deny that we have free will, because free will is thought to be inconsistent with God's sovereign control. Free will supposedly poses a threat to divine sovereignty. There is a tension, but I'm not sure they really are inconsistent. And it seems a worse problem arises when free will is denied: doesn't God's sovereign control, when not balanced by our free will, suggest that God is the author of sin?

[RobinD69]

Hold on now, we are not responsible for our own salvation but we are responsible for our choices. If we are standing in the soup line and we choose not to accept the bread offered then we are responsible for our own hunger. God offers salvation to all who will accept and He is not responsible for those who dont.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

Yes, that is known as reckoning, not justification. Here is a more literal translation to help you:

Rom 10:10 for with the heart doth one believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;

That's what you don't quite get. The Gospel is the work of Christ alone. It is at the cross and in the resurrection that we are Justified by God. That's the Gospel you don't see yet. I don't say this to be critical, I say it with truth and sincerity.

Actually, it matters what God says. God has said we are justified by Christ alone. Not by our faith. If you do not believe this you do not believe the Gospel.

Declaring and imputing are two distinct acts of God. Declaring occurs at the cross, imputing occurs through faith given to us by grace.

Removed sin as a barrier? This is not scriptural. You'll need to go back and read the Gospel my friend.

Of course, but your talking about the reckoning of righteousness to us by faith given to us by grace in the new birth (regeneration). These verses all speak to the fruit or results of our having been declared righteous by God at the cross. That's why we're having this discussion. Of course one must believe to have eternal life. That's not open for debate. But it is not our believing that justifies us before God. It is Christ's work alone that justified us.

Decisional regeneration is not scriptural. This is the false Gospel you've been proclaiming.

We are justified at the cross by Christ alone. That is the Gospel I keep telling you about. It's the Good News. Until you see this you'll continue to proclaim a false Gospel based upon choices and decisions that the sinner makes rather than what Christ accomplished for us at the cross.

Of course God calls through the Gospel. How else would he call us? But again, you continue to add to God's word to shape and form it into your preconceived doctrines and precepts of men. Why don't you let it speak for itself? Is it not in agreement with your doctrines?

...LOL The NASB keeps revising the translation because they can't get it right. They never could. They also keep moving away from a literal word for word translation. The scriptures have not changed, trust me. Only the translations.

Yes, I've read the history in detail. I would suggest you also read from those critical of the modern translations to get a better perspective on why the Majority Text or Received Text (Textus Receptus) is the preferred text and has been up until recently (1850 or so). The modern translations are a lot like the world, they only get worse..LOL

Please repent and believe in the Gospel Mike. You'll do both yourself and your listeners a big favor. I'll pray for you --- Alabama

The Gospel does not teach universal salvation. Universal salvation is a Satanic heresy. It attempts to lull the unwary into a false sense of security with regard to their salvation. Anyone foolish enough to believe this false teaching and therefore never makes the decision to believe in Christ for salvation will spend eternity in the Lake of fire. How many people are you going to be responsible for luring away from being saved? You have no concept of what it is you are doing. Or else you do, and are deliberately attempting to keep people from making the most important decision they will ever have to make in their life.

People, get it through your heads. Passage after passage makes it clear that salvation is conditional on believing in Christ. If you do not believe in Christ for salvation, you will die in your sins.

John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on Him.''

People, if you are foolish enough to be suckered in by the heresy of universal salvation and don't accept Christ as Savior, then you will in the truest sense of the word, get what you deserve. Eternity in the lake of fire.

Stay away from these universalists. They are not teaching truth. They are enemies of the Cross.

Understand this. No one is justified at the Cross. No one is justified until they believe in Christ for salvation. Salvation in the Bible means justification. You are not saved until you make a decision to believe in Christ.

Rom. 4:5 ''But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned (counted) as righteousness.

At the point that a person believes in Christ, God imputes His righteousness to that person. God sees His righteousness in him, and then pronounces him justified.

And to say that sin was not a barrier between man and God shows a complete lack of understanding of the issue in salvation. Christ died for the sins of the world. He paid the penalty for every sin in the history of the human race. As a result, sin was taken out of the way. It was removed as a barrier and therefore man is reconciled to God. BUT, that reconciliation is not applied to anyone until they make the decision to believe in Christ for salvation. I gave about nine different salvation passages in my last post. Look them up. God requires a volitional decision on the part of man to accept or reject the offer of salvation.

People, these universalists believe and promote doctrines that are completely contrary to the word of God.

I only hope no one is dumb enough to listen to them. Sadly, however, many will listen and be deceived. My conscience is clear. All I can do is to warn people away from these false teachings. Everyone is responsible for their own decision. Make the right one.

[Harold Kupp]

[quote=Fundamentalist;12055858]IT IS SCRIPTURAL

I don't understand the position people take that a person cannot be responsible for receiving Christ? It is clear in scripture that God alone saves, that we are saved by grace, that we can't earn our way into heaven, that we are dead in our sins, that we love Him because He first loved us but the Bible also says that we are responsible for receiving Christ as Savior. If we believe in Jesus Christ we will be saved. It's irrelevant who makes the first move, the question is does the individual do anything after God's saves them like confess, believe, repent, surrender, receive, put your trust in Christ.

If so, then what of those billions who have never heard of Jesus - for example the Chinese for thousands of years before and after Jesus?

HK

[sciotamicks]

Who is the Universalist here spreading lies about mankind being saved after death and rejecting the gospel in life?