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Old 12-16-2009, 11:09 PM
 
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Very simple:

God Foreknows ------------> All who are in Christ.

This is part of God's Omniscience before time. The Bible is clear that the means of how we arrive in Christ is through faith, which is not considered a work. God sees this from eternity past. Notice that the starting place, from a Scriptual standpoint not a philosophical one, is those whom God sees in Christ not from God picking people to be in Christ.

All who are in Christ are then Predestined -----------> to be comformed to the Image of Christ.

Notice the distinction between being predestined to be in Christ and being comformed to His image. The latter is from the standpoint of already being in Christ - that is the destiny of all who are in Christ is glorification not justification. Justification is by the call of the Gospel which we through the conviction of the Spirit can choose to believe or reject (You do always resist the Holy Spirit).This is why predestination is never spoken of about the unbeliever nor is it spoken of about justification for the believer.

When one is in Christ they are elect; but they are not elected to be in Christ. In other words God does not pick from the mass of potential humans and put some in Christ but take those who are already in Christ according to his foreknowledge and destines them to glorification. They are the elect (favored ones) to be predestined to be conformed to His image.

This is the way I see it.

As a side note: God ordains the means (faith) as well as the ends (glorification). God in His omniscience saw all possible worlds and of course He chose this one - the one where He honors faith becuase that is His plan, it is His will that faith is part of the package. Therefore, when one exercises faith this does not rob God of His Sovereignty because that Sovereignty ordained the means not just the ends. When He sees in eternity past those in the world He chose exercising faith He sees them in Christ. This in no way is a boasting in that exercise for two reason 1) God ordained that faith be the means, and 2) Faith is not considered a work - somthing God does not honor. By exercising faith we only establish the will andplan of God.

There is no Scripture that could not accomodate the above scenerio.

Last edited by Shiloh1; 12-17-2009 at 12:25 AM.. Reason: Clarification
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Very simple:

God Foreknows ------------> All who are in Christ.

This is part of God's Omniscience before time. The Bible is clear that the means of how we arrive in Christ is through faith, which is not considered a work. God sees this from eternity past. Notice that the starting place, from a Scriptual standpoint not a philosophical one, is those whom God sees in Christ not from God picking people to be in Christ.

All who are in Christ are then Predestined -----------> to be comformed to the Image of Christ.

Notice the distinction between being predestined to be in Christ and being comformed to His image. The latter is from the standpoint of already being in Christ - that is the destiny of all who are in Christ is glorification not justification. Justification is by the call of the Gospel which we through the conviction of the Spirit can choose to believe or reject (You do always resist the Holy Spirit).This is why predestination is never spoken of about the unbeliever nor is it spoken of about justification for the believer.

When one is in Christ they are elect; but they are not elected to be in Christ. In other words God does not pick from the mass of potential humans and put some in Christ but take those who are already in Christ according to his foreknowledge and destines them to glorification. They are the elect (favored ones) to be predestined to be conformed to His image.

This is the way I see it.
Here is my two cents that might help here: Justification (or being declared righteous) is a declaration to the sinner by God, based upon the work of Christ alone. The resurrection of Christ is God's testimony to the sinner of his being declared righteous:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

We are declared righteous by God strictly on the merits of Christ alone. We are imputed (or reckoned) to be righteous through faith in the Gospel (receiving Christ), by regeneration of the Spirit, in time (the new birth).

Rom 4:23 And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him,
Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,

God's foreknowledge is of those whom He called according to purpose:

Rom 8:28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:17 PM
 
5,496 posts, read 4,402,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Here is my two cents that might help here: Justification (or being declared righteous) is a declaration to the sinner by God, based upon the work of Christ alone. The resurrection of Christ is God's testimony to the sinner of his being declared righteous:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

We are declared righteous by God strictly on the merits of Christ alone. We are imputed (or reckoned) to be righteous through faith in the Gospel (receiving Christ), by regeneration of the Spirit, in time (the new birth).

Rom 4:23 And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him,
Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,

God's foreknowledge is of those whom He called according to purpose:

Rom 8:28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
Rom.4:25 - I would say the translation of this is a bit off or misleading. He was wounded for our transgression...and for our justification. The 'because of' sounds as if we were already justified and that is the reason Christ rose. Obviously in a the mind of God, yes that is true, like Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world. But Paul's point is that Christ rose so that we might be justified by faith - hence 5:1-2 - 'Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, though whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand.' The grace here is the giving of God's Son to be wounded for our transgressions. Also, the word 'being' is not in the text. It is just 'raised for our justification.' If by 'being' the translator means 'so that we can become' then I see that but once again this just adds confusion esp. when it is not in the text. The following and preceeding contexts show this - no need to add anything.

I am not sure I understood you so do not think I am accussing you of anything
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Rom.4:25 - I would say the translation of this is a bit off or misleading. He was wounded for our transgression...and for our justification. The 'because of' sounds as if we were already justified and that is the reason Christ rose. Obviously in a the mind of God, yes that is true, like Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world. But Paul's point is that Christ rose so that we might be justified by faith - hence 5:1-2 - 'Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, though whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand.' The grace here is the giving of God's Son to be wounded for our transgressions. Also, the word 'being' is not in the text. It is just 'raised for our justification.' If by 'being' the translator means 'so that we can become' then I see that but once again this just adds confusion esp. when it is not in the text. The following and preceeding contexts show this - no need to add anything.

I am not sure I understood you so do not think I am accussing you of anything
Let me see if I can help. The translation is actually correct. Here is why: It was because of our sins that Christ died. It is because of our being declared righteous that Christ was raised. The same word structure and parsing is used for both phrases.

The words "because of" are translated from the Greek word:

G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of

YLT
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

NASV (with Greek word numbers)
Rom 4:25 He who3739 was delivered3860 over because1223 of our transgressions3900, and was raised1453 because1223 of our justification1347.

It's Christ's death on the cross that redeemed us. God declared us righteous by that sacrifice, and testified to it in Christ's resurrection. It isn't that we "might" be justified, but rather we are justified. And Christ's resurrection is our proof.

Hope that helps
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:23 PM
 
5,496 posts, read 4,402,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Let me see if I can help. The translation is actually correct. Here is why: It was because of our sins that Christ died. It is because of our being declared righteous that Christ was raised. The same word structure and parsing is used for both phrases.

The words "because of" are translated from the Greek word:

G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of

YLT
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

NASV (with Greek word numbers)
Rom 4:25 He who3739 was delivered3860 over because1223 of our transgressions3900, and was raised1453 because1223 of our justification1347.

It's Christ's death on the cross that redeemed us. God declared us righteous by that sacrifice, and testified to it in Christ's resurrection. It isn't that we "might" be justified, but rather we are justified. And Christ's resurrection is our proof.

Hope that helps
I did not say that the translation was wrong just misleading. 'Dia' can be an is often translated 'for' under a causal heading. But the semantics of 'becuase of' and 'for' is quite different. Also, 'being' a verbal aspect is not in the text as stated. There is just the noun 'justification'. There is no 'being declared'

So then you must be either a universalist or Jesus' death and resurrection is only for a certain elect?

Paul says that a person is justified by faith - 3:28; and 5:1.

I am correct on your view?
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I did not say that the translation was wrong just misleading. 'Dia' can be an is often translated 'for' under a causal heading. But the semantics of 'becuase of' and 'for' is quite different. Also, 'being' a verbal aspect is not in the text as stated. There is just the noun 'justification'. There is no 'being declared'

So then you must be either a universalist or Jesus' death and resurrection is only for a certain elect?

Paul says that a person is justified by faith - 3:28; and 5:1.

I am correct on your view?
Let's look and see who's faith that is :

Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,

Rom 3:26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus.

Rom 3:28 therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law.
Not man's faith but rather by faith, the faith of Jesus as in the previous verses 3:22 and 3:26.

We're declared righteous by the faith (or faithfulness) of Jesus. It was Christ's faith that lead Him to the cross to die for us. Many modern translations say faith in Jesus, and thereby change the meaning to man's faith, but IMO those are not correct . The KJV, LITV, Geneva Bible and the Bishops Bible all translate it as the faith of Jesus.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
So then you must be either a universalist or Jesus' death and resurrection is only for a certain elect?
I'm both. Sinners are the ones called by Christ, they are the elect. The only ones that are not called (non-elect) are the righteous ones that do not need Christ:

Mat 9:12 And Jesus having heard, said to them, `They who are whole have no need of a physician, but they who are ill;
Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

These sinners are the impious. They are the ones that God declared righteous:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:54 PM
 
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Alabama,

Just something I noticed is when it says many are called and few are chosen

called is G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

chosen is G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

The other times the word called is used is when referring to the apostles and saints. Rom 1:1, Rom 1:6, 1:7 Rom 8:28, 1 Cor 1:1, 1:2, 1:24, Jud 1:1, Rev 17:14

How do you view the many are called ---- few chosen, if the called are the chosen.
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Alabama,

Just something I noticed is when it says many are called and few are chosen

called is G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

chosen is G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

The other times the word called is used is when referring to the apostles and saints. Rom 1:1, Rom 1:6, 1:7 Rom 8:28, 1 Cor 1:1, 1:2, 1:24, Jud 1:1, Rev 17:14

How do you view the many are called ---- few chosen, if the called are the chosen.
Well, because it is the called that are justified (declared righteous) and those He declared righteous He did glorify :

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call (G2564), these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call (G2564) righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

G2564
καλέω
kaleō; a prim. word; to call:
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:27 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I did not say that the translation was wrong just misleading. 'Dia' can be an is often translated 'for' under a causal heading. But the semantics of 'becuase of' and 'for' is quite different. Also, 'being' a verbal aspect is not in the text as stated. There is just the noun 'justification'. There is no 'being declared'

So then you must be either a universalist or Jesus' death and resurrection is only for a certain elect?

Paul says that a person is justified by faith - 3:28; and 5:1.

I am correct on your view?
But Faith, like the grace Christ provided for us through the personal sacrifice of Christ, is a gift of God.

Rom 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved,throughfaith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Both faith and grace are two heads of the same coin which is salvation. And salvation is a gift. That is to say both faith and grace are two sides of the one gift of God.

We cannot believe nor can we repent unless God gives us faith and repentance. So anyone who does not believe or repent is because it is impossible for them to believe and repent, because God did not give them faith and repentance.

2Ti 2:25
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Act 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.


All these things are Gifts from God and do not derive from our carnal natures. We cannot believe, we cannot repent, and we cannot be saved with God working within us and by the sacrifice of Christ.
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