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Old 12-17-2009, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Florida
30 posts, read 43,311 times
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FIRST RESURRECTION-SECOND DEATH
THE FIRST RESURRECTION "He that over comes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Revelation 2:11, 20:6). The first resurrection is when a person is "born anew...born of the water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5). "And you did he make ALIVE when you were dead...made us ALIVE together with Christ (by grace have you been saved), and RAISED US UP with him" (Ephesians 2:1-6; Galatians 2:18-19; 3:1). The first resurrection is when, "We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was RAISED FROM THE DEAD" (Romans 6:3-4). "And you did he MAKE ALIVE...even when WE WERE DEAD through our trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ...and RAISED US UP with him" (Ephesians 2:1-6). "I say unto you, the hour comes, and now is when THE DEAD shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and THEY THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE" (John 5:25). "There are only two alternatives, the crown of life-eternal life-or the second death" Homer Hailey, Revelation, Page 128, Baker Book House. It is life or death, not life in Heaven or life in Hell. Death is real.
"But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even while we were dead because of our sins, he GAVE US LIFE when he raised Christ from the dead...FOR HE RAISED US FROM THE DEAD ALONG WITH CHRIST" (Ephesians 2:4 New Living Bible).
"But God, rich in mercy, for the great love he bore us, BROUGHT US TO LIFE WITH CHRIST...HE RAISED US UP" (Ephesians 2:4 New English Bible).
All that are in the grave, both saved and lost, will hear His voice and come forth at the resurrection. All will be raised for judgment. All who are born again, made alive by being raised with Christ through Baptism; and live faithful shall not be hurt of the second death after the judgment. Christ paid the wages of sin for them. All others will pay their own wages of sin, which is death (Romans 6:23). "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone; WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH" (Revelation 21:8). From this death there will never be a resurrection. The results will be eternal. An endless life of torment is not a second death; it is eternal LIFE with torment. IT BEARS NO RESEMBLANCE TO A DEATH. To feel pain, those in Hell would have to be just as alive as those in Heaven are. For an immortal, immaterial soul that cannot be dead to be forever alive and tormented in a literal lake of fire is so dissimilar to death that a person would be in desperate need to prove his or her theology to say death is an eternal life of torment.
"THE SECOND DEATH" is used four times, all in Revelation.
(1) He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death (Revelation 2:11). The saved will not have a part in the second death. Only the lost.
(2) Those who are buried and raised with Christ (Romans 6) in the first resurrection, "Over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:6).
(3) Death and hades, and any not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire; which is the second death. All three come to the same end. All three end in death (Revelation 20:14-15).
(4) He that overcomes shall inherit and be God's son, but for all others, "Their part shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8). No ransom has been offered for the second death. It is forever.
SECOND DEATH IN PLAIN UNSYMBOLIC LANGUAGE
"There remains no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of JUDGMENT, and a fierceness of fire which shall DEVOUR the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:27). For the lost (1) judgment then (2) devour in the lake of fire, which is the second death. Not as it is preached today (1) judgment (2) then an eternal life of torment in Hell forever but never devoured, or as preached by many an eternal life in Hell at death before and without the resurrection and judgment day.
"IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YOU SHALL DIE" “For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die (apothncesko); but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live” (Romans 8:13). All mankind, even the faithful, have been dying the first death since the sin of Adam, this is not a reference to the first death but the second when only those who live according to the flesh will die. Paul did not say, "If you live after the flesh you are now spiritually dead," but "YOU shall die." Not your soul shall live forever separated from God, but "YOU shall die." Why do many that say they believe God but work hard to change His word? "But if by the Spirit YOU put to death the deeds of the body, YOU shall live." It is YOU that will live or die, not A PART OF YOU that will always live and cannot die.
“For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Not the death of the flesh which all die, but the second death.
“I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died (apothncesko). This is the bread which came down out of Heaven, that a man may eat thereof , and not die (apothncesko)” (John 6:48-50). All die the first death, even the apostles, but there will be a resurrection at the coming of Christ and those who eat of the bread that came down out of Heaven will not die the second death, all that do not eat of it will die the second death”
“I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes on me though he die (apothncesko), yet shall he live; and whosoever lives and believes on me shall never die (apothncesko)” (John 11:25-26). Although those who believe will die the first death just all do, they will be resurrected and never die the second death, those who do not believe will also die and be resurrected for judgment and will die the second death. “For the hour comes in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28-29). “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:26-27).
“For the land (those who were once enlightened and fell away Hebrews 6:4-6) which has drunk the rain that comes oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receives blessing form God: but if it bears thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to e burned” (Hebrews 6:4-8). Those that fall away will be burned in the lake of fire, which is the second death just as thorns are burned.
FOR THERE TO BE LIFE FOR THOSE WHO DIE THE SECOND DEATH THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE A RESURRECTION FROM THAT DEATH. THERE IS NOTHING SAID ABOUT A RESURRECTION FROM THE SECOND DEATH. MANY CHANGE "DEATH" TO "LIFE," BY CHANGING "THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH" TO "THE WAGES OF SIN IS ETERNAL LIFE WITH TORMENT."
DEATH IS MADE TO BE NOT DEATH BUT A MERE CHANGE IN THE MODE OF EXISTENCE. TO MANY, DEATH MEANS TO BE ALIVE, TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, BUT SEPARATED FROM GOD AND TORMENTED BY GOD. TO MAKE THE WORD "DEATH" FIT THEIR VIEW; THEY MUST MAKE IT FIGURATIVE. THE TRUE MEANING OF THE WORD WILL DESTROY THEIR VIEW. ALL PLAIN PASSAGES LIKE ROMANS 6:23 (THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH) MUST BE MADE INTO FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, BUT THEY CANNOT TELL US HOW THEY KNOW WHAT THE FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE MEANS. THEY CANNOT TELL US HOW THEY KNOW "DEATH" MEANS "LIFE."
The first death is the end of life of the flesh (life as it exist now). The second death then must also be the end of life (life as it will exist then), or it is not a second death, but something altogether different from death. An everlasting life of torment is not a second death. In the traditional concept, a person has an immortal soul, which neither the first or second death can kill, therefore; death must be made to be something other than death. On about every page throughout the New Testament it is life or death, not just reward or punishment. THE UNSAVED DIE, PERISH, ARE DESTROYED, AND ARE LOST. THE OBEDIENT ARE SAVED FROM DEATH AND GIVEN LIFE AND IMMORTALITY AT THE JUDGMENT. If the soul now has eternal life, if it is immortal and cannot die, then much of the language of the Bible has no meaning and is saying nothing. WHY IS THERE SO MUCH IN THE BIBLE ON DEATH WHEN THERE IS NO DEATH? Many have believed what their preacher or church says and have rejected the Bible as being untrue.
If all have an immortal soul that have everlasting life it could never receive the wage of sin, death, for it would not be subject to death. An immortal soul could not die, and would have no need for Christ to die in its place. Christ could not give life to those who believe Him for they would have been born with eternal life and cannot die. Eternal life is frequently promised to the righteous, but never to the wicked. If they do not have eternal life, they cannot endure eternal torment.
God said it the way He meant it.
(1.) LIFE is life, not just a reward to a part of a person that now has eternal LIFE and can never be dead.
(2.) DEATH is death and it is the opposite of life, not a different form of life. Not eternal life with torment.
(3.) DESTRUCTION is destruction. Destruction does not mean there is a part of a person that can never be destroyed.
(4.) END is end, not going on without an end.
(5.) KILL is to end life and does not mean never able to be killed, never able to end life.
(6.) BURNED UP is burned up. Not never able to be burned up.
(7.) CONSUMED is consumed. Not never able to be consumed.
(8.) PERISH is perish. Not just a loss of well being to those who cannot perish.
(9.) SLEEP is sleep. Not to be awake in Heaven or Hell.
THERE IS NO WAY GOD COULD HAVE SAID THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH ANYMORE CLEARER THAN HE DID.
Death makes Hell impossible
Hell makes death impossible
If there is no death, there cannot be a resurrection of the undead. If there is no resurrection, we have no hope 1 Corinthians 15:16-19. CAN THERE BE A DOCTRINE MORE HARMFUL THAN THE DOCTRINE OF HELL, WHICH TAKES AWAY OUR RESURRECTION AND HOPE OF SALVATION?
robertwr.com
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:52 AM
 
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RobertWR: You hit the nail squarely on its head!! Thank you for sharing the real truth about the 2nd death. I was raised a Roman Catholic, saw the light at 21 and joined a baptist church much to the shagrin of my parents. When I started having some doctrine issues with the Baptist denomination I began attending other denominations and it was at a 7th Day Adventist service where I learned the truth about the 2nd death. My eyes were opened wide and it made PERFECT sense!! Among those verses you quoted I also like to quote Matthew 10:28 referring to "fear Him who can destroy BOTH body AND SOUL in hell". Like you said, the doctrine of complete anialation of the lost is crystal clear, why do most of the "bible-believing" denominations get this wrong?
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Four views on what happens at death, each one is in sharp conflict with the other three and makes them not possible. Yet, many preachers put the dead in three places simultaneously.
(1) The spirit of all returns to God.
(2) The dead are alive in sheol which is believed by many to be somewhere under the earth.
(3) The soul of the saved go to Heaven at death and the soul of the lost go to Hell at death.
(4) All the dead are asleep unto the resurrection.

If you believe #1, you make the Hell in # 2 impossible. If the spirit or the soul is the only part(s) of a person that lives after the death of the body and "The spirit returns to God who gives it" [Ecclesiastes 12:7] then the soul never goes to sheol or hades; therefore, if there were a place under the earth called "sheol" no person ever goes to it. It could not be the receptacle or the place of abode of disembodied spirits if the spirit returns to God in Heaven at death. If you believe #1, you make the Hell in # 3 impossible. If the spirit or soul of all the dead returns to God at death, no one could go to Hell at death. Nevertheless, we are repeatedly told the lost spirits go to Hell at death. If all return to God in Heaven, no one is dead; therefore, the resurrection of # 4 is impossible.

If you believe # 2, the dead are alive in sheol you make 1, 3, and 4 impossible. If all the dead are alive together in sheol, no spirit could have returned to God, no soul could be in Hell and none would be asleep unto the resurrection. The truth is that all the dead in the Old Testament are asleep in the grave and #2 is the same as # 4. There is no conflict in were the dead are in the Old and New Testaments.

If you believe #3, all souls do not return to God at death, most go to Hell. If all go to Heaven or Hell AT DEATH, NO ONE WOULD EVER BE IN SHEOL. There would be no time when they could be. All the sixty-four passages in the in the Old Testament which speak of sheol would be worse than meaningless; they would be untruthful, for they have put ALL, both the good and the evil together in sheol, none in Heaven and none in Hell. The dead would not be asleep unto the resurrection and there cannot be a resurrection as no one is dead.

If you believe # 4, that the dead are asleep and there will be a resurrection, you make 1, 2, and 3 impossible. If the dead are asleep and will be unto the resurrection, no spirit will return to God at death, no one will be in Heaven or Hell at death.
robertwr.com
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Florida
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THE SECOND DEATH
THE FATE OF THOSE WHO ARE NOT IN CHRIST
[1] UTTERLY DESTROYED [Acts 3:23]
[2] DEATH [Romans 6:23; 6:21; 7:5; 4:17; 8:6; 1 Corinthians 3:22]
[3] MUST DIE [Romans 8:13; John 8:24; 6:50]. This is not the first death, which comes to all, to both those who are saved and those who are lost [Hebrews 9:27], but is the SECOND DEATH (eternal nothingness) [Revelation 21:8]. All will die once but the lost will die twice
[4] "And when sin is accomplished, it brings forth DEATH" [James 1:15]
[5] "Condemned them to EXTINCTION" Revised Standard Version [2 Peter 2:6]
[6] They “are WORTHY OF DEATH” [Romans 1:32]
[7] PASSES AWAY [1 John 2:17]
[8] Their END is DEATH [Romans 6:21-22]
[9] Their wages for sin “IS DEATH” [Romans 6:23]
[10] They “MUST DIE” [Romans 8:13]
[11] "Their END is DESTRUCTION" [Philippians 3:19]
[12] "Whose END is TO BE BURNED" [Hebrews 6:8]
[13] "Everlasting DESTRUCTION" [2 Thessalonians 1:9]
[14] "Sudden DESTRUCTION" [1 Thessalonians 5:2-3]
[15] " Swift DESTRUCTION" [2 Peter 2:1]
[16] " Will reap DESTRUCTION" [Galatians 6:8]
[17] "DESTRUCTION of ungodly man" [2 Peter 3:7]
[18] Are on the broad way leading to DESTRUCTION [Matthew 7:13-14; Philippians 3:19; 1:28; 2 Peter 3:7]
[19] God will DESTROY [1 Corinthians 3:17; 2 Peter 2:12]
[20] Will be "DESTROYED" like Sodom [Luke 17:29]
[21] BRING TO NOTHING [2 Thessalonians 2:8]
[22] Will be TURNED TO ASHES like Sodom and Gomorrah [Peter 2:6]
[23] Will "BE BURNED UP" [2 Peter 3:10]
[24] Will "PERISH" [John 3:16]
[25] Will be "SLAIN" [Luke 1914]
[26] Will be "THROWN AWAY" [Matthew 13:18]
[27] They "SHALL NOT SEE LIFE" [John 3:36; 5:40; 1 John 3:15]
[28] DO NOT HAVE THE "LIFE" Christ gives to them that obey Him [John 3:36; 5:21; 5:24; 5:29; 5:40; 6:27; Matthew 19:29; 1 John 5:12]
[29] Will LOSE LIFE [Matthew 10:39]
[30] Will have NO ACCESS TO THE TREE OF LIFE [Revelation 2:7; 22:2; 22:14]
[31] Will be BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE [Revelation 3:5]
[32] Shall PASS AWAY in "the Day of Judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN," the "heavens shall pass away...shall be dissolved...burned up" [2 Peter 3:7-13]
[33] Will be "DEVOUR" [American Standard Version] "CONSUME" [New American Standard Version] [Hebrews 10:27; 12:29]
[34] Fate of the wicked in the parable-always destroyed, death, not tormented
THEY WILL BURN UP like the useless chaff of wheat [Matthew 3:12, Luke 3:17]
BURNED like weeds, tares and bad fish [Matthew 13:30-50]
Like harmful plants will be rooted up [Matthew 15:13]
Cut asunder like the unfaithful servant [Matthew 24:45-51]
Cut down like useless fig tree [Luke 13:6-9]
SLAIN (killed) like enemies [Luke 19:27]
Cast out and KILLED like the unfaithful husbandman [Luke 20:9-17]
Are BURNED UP like withered branches [John 15:6]
If the above language does not denote the utter destruction of the wicked, what language could God have used that would? None. Those who try to explain away the above would try to explain away any language that could be used.
[35] Fate of the wicked in the Old Testament (the fate of people and nations in this lifetime)
"Behold the day comes, it burns as a furnace [see 2 Peter 3:10-12] and all the proud and all that work wickedness shall be stubble; and the day that comes SHALL BURN THEM UP, says the LORD of hosts, that IT SHALL LEAVE THEM NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH" [Malachi 4:1-3]. Probably said of the nation of Israel. Burn up a plant and leave it neither root nor branch and nothing will remain of it. Nothing will remain of the nation.
The wicked "shall soon be cut down like the grass" [Psalms 37:2]
"Shall be cut off...shall not be" [Psalms 37:9-10]
"Will be as nothing" [Isaiah 41:11]
"Become as if they has never existed" [Obadiah 16]
"Shall perish...in smoke shall they consume away" [Psalms 37:20]
"They shall be destroyed" [Psalms 37:38]. "Altogether destroyed" New Revised Standard Version
Shall "melt away" [Psalms 112:10; 68:2]
"But the way of the wicked will perish" [Psalms 1:6]
"But all the wicked, He will destroy" [Psalms 145:20]
"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book" [Exodus 32:33]
"The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction" [Job 21:30]
"They are like the chaff which the wind drives away" [Psalms 1:4]
Souls shall die [Genesis 3:3; Ezekiel 18:4; 13:19]
[36] Add to this the fact that Hell is not in the Bible, not the name or the concept; nothing is said about God tormenting anyone after the judgment; nothing is said about the wicked after the second death; and you have a clear picture of the fate of the wicked. GOD COULD NOT HAVE SAID IN HUMAN LANGUAGE ANY CLEARER OR STRONGER WHAT THE FATE OF THE WICKED WILL BE. If you think it could be said any more clearly, try it. You cannot do it. BETWEEN THE STATEMENTS OF THE INSPIRED WRITERS OF THE BIBLE ABOVE, AND THE UNINSPIRED TEACHING OF MEN, THERE IS AN ENORMOUS DISCREPANCY AND CONTRADICTION THAT CANNOT BE EXPLAINED AWAY.
Our choice is life or death [see Deuteronomy 30:19-20]. To live or die [Ezekiel 18:20], an eternal life in Hell forever being tormented by God is not one of our choices.
robertwr.com
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Old 09-15-2013, 01:54 PM
 
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[CENTER][CENTER]A Deathless, Immaterial, Invisible, No Substance Soul[/CENTER][/CENTER]
[CENTER][CENTER]Versus The Resurrection Of The Dead[/CENTER][/CENTER]
The main point of an article, “Reinterpretation Of The Scripture” in Truth Magazine, August 7, 2003, page 458 is about reinterpreting Genesis 3 to mean the Serpent was not real, but was taken from well-known pagan myths. The article points out that when one reinterpretation is accepted more will soon come, and gives some reinterpretations the writer think may come. Without doubt, many have made reinterpretations of many scriptures, and many more will make more reinterpretations; reinterpretation that the magazine said nothing about have been made and accepted by many. Some reinterpretations that have been made in the past that are historical facts, and are believed by many today, reinterpretations that have caused many of the divisions we now have are Purgatory, Limbo, worship of Mary and Saints, Nether World, holy water, the rosary, forbidding Priest to marry, the crucifix, Monks and Nuns, forbidding eating of meat on Friday, and candle-burning. About all Protestants believe Purgatory to be a change or reinterpretation, and there are hundreds more reinterpretations that are historical facts, and are believed by many today, but no one believes all to the hundreds of reinterpretations made in the past. Most believe only a few of them, and all the many others they believe to be the doctrine of man, not God. On what does anyone basic his or her belief that most reinterpretations are not from God, but believe that a few are from God? Going to God's word is the only way anyone can know whether any teaching is from man or if it is from the Bible.
Back to: INDEX AND CHAPTER ONE html –Or go to: INDEX AND ALL ELEVEN CHAPTERS pdf
[CENTER][CENTER]THE SUBJECTS OF THIS CHAPTER[/CENTER][/CENTER]
(1) The nature of man, from mankind now being mortal, reinterpretedto mankind now being immortal.
· The reinterpretation of the nature of a person, that a person has a immaterial something in them is now immortal, and only it, not the person, goes to Heaven or Hell at death, only this immortal something in a person will ever live after the death of the person, only it will ever be in Heaven.
· The general confusion of soul and spirit, are they both the same, or are they two different immortal, invisible, immaterial being that are in a person and one or both will live after the person is dead?
(2) "The wages of sin is death" reinterpreted to be the wages of sin is an eternal life of torment in Hell for an immortal soul that is not subject to death. The resurrection versus an immortal soul that cannot die, therefore it needs no resurrection.
(3) The reinterpretation of the final destiny of a person changed from Heaven to earth.That the saved will forever be with Jesus in Heaven is reinterpreted to be that Jesus will forever be with the saved on this earth, and no person will ever be in Heaven.
These three reinterpretations are believed by many today, and are causing many of the divisions we now have.
Unconditional immortality makes many of the great doctrines of the New Testament useless and\or impossible.
[CENTER][CENTER](1) THE REINTERPRETATION OF THEDEATH OF JESUS[/CENTER][/CENTER]
"Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus actually died for our sins (Romans 5:8). "We were reconciled to God through the death of his Son" (Romans 5:10). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Christ died our death that we may have life, not to keep us from an eternal life of torment, but to give us life (eternal life). He paid the wages for our sin, and died our death in our place, but He is not forever being tormented in our place. Death is the penalty for sin, not eternal life with torment. (Hebrews 9:11-28; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:16-19; Matthew 27:20; John 10:15; 12:23-26; 1 Corinthians 15:3; Hebrews 2:14; 9:16-17; 10:14; Isaiah 43:12). If, as many teach, the wages of sin is eternal life in torment, Christ did not suffer eternal torment for us; therefore, He would not have paid the wages of sin for us. Jesus bore the punishment of sin that the sinner will bear at the judgment, but He is not suffering eternal torment; therefore, if eternal torment were the wages of sin, He is not paying it for us. Life is His gift to us, not just a reward for an immaterial, invisible "soul" that has eternal life and cannot die. Those who do not reach the blood of Christ (His death) will die, for the wages of their sin is death, "For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Romans 6:5). If those not united in the likeness of His death will not be in the likeness of His resurrection, then what likeness will they have in Hell? The wages of their sin is death, not having the likeness of Christ, or Adam, or any other likeness when in Hell. The only part of a person many says is immortal and will be in Heaven or Hell is an undying soul that can never die; therefore, Christ could not have died in its place to save a deathless soul from the wages of sin for that immortal soul would not be subject to death and would have no need for Him to have died in its place.
If Christ were as much alive in the three days His earthly body was in the grave as He was after the resurrection, then there was no difference in Christ (1) than when before He came to earth (2) than when His earthly body was in the grave (3) and now when He is in Heaven, If His death were not total and complete, if only His earthly body were dead, then He was the same spiritual being with all the power and glory in the three days His body was in the grave that He had before He came to earth, or that He now has in Heaven. Jesus could have given nothing but His earthly body for our sins. According to those who believe we have a soul, which is only a part of us that cannot die, the soul of Christ could not and did not die; therefore, according to their teaching Jesus did not die for our sins for he was never dead.
The death of Jesus was not just a door by which He went instantly back to Heaven before His resurrection. He was not "received up from you into heaven" (Acts 1:11) unto 50 days after His death, not at the time of His death, not before His resurrection.
Christ “poured out his being unto death” (Isaiah 53:12). “He poured out Himself to death” New American Standard Bible. Christ poured out his being, not just a human body, unto dead. Unto His resurrection He was dead, not alive in Hell or any other place; if He had not been dead He could not have been resurrected.
Christ was as dead and as much under the power of death as mankind will be after death. He was not somewhere very much alive with the same body (spiritual body), and the power and glory He had before He came to earth, and His resurrection was just His coming back from someplace where He was alive, just coming back to His human body; that would not have been a death or a resurrection. The Wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Christ died in our place with all God's wrath that we would have had upon us at the judgment. Jesus paid our debt in full. He "lay down his life" for us (John 15:13), but he is not suffering eternal punishment for us; therefore, if eternal punishment is the wages of sin, He is not now paying our debt.
The death Christ died and his resurrection are opposites. If His death was not a real death, His resurrection could not be a real resurrection. Then what would God has given when He gave His only Son, nothing more than one human body for three days. There was no real sacrifice by God or Christ, no real resurrection as Jesus was alive while His body was in the grave. We are told repeatedly God raised Christ from the dead (Acts 3:15; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30; 13:37; Romans 4:24; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 15:15; 2 Corinthians 4:14; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Peter 1:21). "Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus" (Hebrews 13:20). Suffering is never said to be the wages of sin, but many take away the wages of sin (death) and put an eternal life of suffering in Hell in its place. Not to take anything away from the suffering of Christ, but if He had suffered all He did right up to His death, and then not have died for our sin; we would still have to pay the penalty of our sin, which is death (Romans 6:23). Jesus died for us, but He is not being forever tormented for us.
  • "He laid down his life for us" (1 John 3:16).
  • "Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead" (Matthew 17:9).
  • "And go quickly, and tell his disciples, he is risen from the dead" (Matthew 28:7).
  • "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day" (Luke 24:46).
  • "This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after that he was risen from the dead" (John 21:14).
  • "And killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead" (Acts 3:15).
(a) Christ is our Passover: Exodus 20: The lamb died in the place of the first-born. It was slain, not forever tormented. Its blood was placed on the doorpost, and the death angel passed over. If there were no blood, there was death for the first born, not an eternal life of torment. "For our Passover also has been sacrificed, even Christ" (1 Corinthians 5:7). "That by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9). Christ died in the place of the sinner. It is by His blood that we are saved from death just as the blood of the lamb saved the first-born from death; the saved will be passed over by the second death. He tasted of death for all, but He is not forever being tormented for all.
(b) No atonement: If God's penalty for sin is not death, it would not have been necessary for Christ to die to redeem us from the curse of the law; for if the law did not inflict death on the sinner, and yet required the death of Christ for the redemption of the sinner, it inflicted on Christ as payment for our sins something it would not have inflicted on us as payment for our sin.
Curtis Dickinson: "If the punishment due for our sins is not actual death, then Christ could not have made an atonement for us by his death. Under the Mosaic Law there was no such punishment as imprisonment for life, much less imprisonment for life under continuous torture. The penalty for the greatest offenses was always and only death." What The Bible Teaches About Immortality And Future Punishment, page 16, church of Christ.
If the soul does not die, but is translated to Heaven or Hell at death, then Christ was not dead. He was not raised the third day, but only came back from Heaven or Hell, but it could not be a resurrection. In Old Testament types, it was the life given up in the blood poured out on the altar that atoned for sin; it was life given up by Christ that atones. Sin must be atoned for; the wages of sin is death. If Christ did not die, no atonement was made. If the wages of sin is an everlasting life of torment, then Christ did not pay it, and no atonement was made. When "soul" (nehphesh-life) is reinterpreted to be an immaterial, invisible,undying inter part of a person, then when Christ "poured out his soul (nehphesh-life) unto death" (Isaiah 53:10-12), was this undying part of Him dead? If He were not dead, He did not pour out his life (nehphesh) unto death, and there was no atonement.
· Wages of sin is death.
· Christ died in our place, our death.
· Therefore, believers are saved from death by the death of Christ, not saved from an eternal life of torment. Death is death; death is not life.
(c) No New Covenant: "For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it. For a testament is in force where there has been death: for it never avail while he that made it lives" (Hebrews 9:16-17). If Christ only changed from living on Earth to living any other place, whether it was Heaven, Hell or wherever.
1. If His soul which was alive before He came to Earth.
2. Was alive while He was on Earth.
3. And was alive when His earthly body was in the grave.
4. Just as it now alive in Heaven.
He did not die, there was no death, and the New Covenant is not in force.
"He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And He made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death" (Isaiah 53:8-9). "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: whom God has raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be held of it...Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and was buried, and his grave is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne, he seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hades, neither did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses" (Acts 2:24-32). This passage speaks of the death of David, and the death of Christ as being the same death with David still dead, but Christ rose from the dead after three days. Christ was as dead for three days as David still is, and will be unto the resurrection. Christ was dead and buried in the grave just as David still is, not alive someplace.
"And therefore it was imputed unto him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offenses and was raised for our justification" (Romans 4:22-25). "For He has made Him to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21). "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared, though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience through the things that he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews. 5:7-9). "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entered into the holy place every year with the blood of others; for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the age (aion-age, not world, probably the end of the Jewish age that ended at His death) has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself And as it appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:24-28).
We are saved by the death of Christ. We were baptized into the death of Christ, and raised from the dead. In some way that we may never fully understand those that are in Christ have died with Him, and His death became our death for our sins. See 2 Corinthians 5:14; Romans 6:3-8; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 2:20; Philippians 3:10; 2 Timothy 2:11.
(d) Makes Christ's death be inadequate: Many who say they "speak where the Bible speaks, and are silent where the Bible is silent," say "We cannot fully grasp the righteousness and holiness of God, nor the sinfulness of sin in His perfectly created universe." They believe that the sinfulness of sin makes eternal torment in Hell necessary, and eternal death would not be enough for God to be a just God. If they, "Speak where the Bible speaks," then how do they know that sin is not evil enough to require the supreme penalty of the death of the sinner; therefore, the sinner must be let off with a lesser penalty of a life of torment. The Bible clearly says death is required. "The wages of sin is death," not just a life of torment. They are clearly speaking where the Bible does not speak. It is often said that the sinfulness of sin makes Hell necessary, but not once does the Bible say this; it says, "The wages of sin is death."
When Christ paid the wages of sin for us, it was with His death. He is not suffering eternal torment for us; therefore, if the wages of sin is eternal torment and not death, then the death of Christ was inadequate to pay for our sins. The wages of sin is death and death is definitely the forfeiture of life, if eternal torment is the wages of sin, Christ did not pay it, and there is no salvation for anyone.
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Old 09-15-2013, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
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The first resurrection mentioned in Revelation is Baptism. Why. Because in Baptism, conversion, the New Christian has passed from death to life. They now already have eternal salvation, forgiveness for their sins, they are justified, Holy, righteous in God's sight, their names are in the Book of life. Paul mentions this in Ephesians 2:4-9..

SEcond death: The first death is the physical death people of all people when they go to the grave. The second death is suffered because even the unbelievers will be resurrected on the last day and will stand before Jesus in judgment. But after their final judgement, they will be cast into hell to die a second death in the lake of burning sulfur.
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:46 AM
 
3,937 posts, read 1,844,771 times
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Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
The first resurrection mentioned in Revelation is Baptism. Why. Because in Baptism, conversion, the New Christian has passed from death to life. They now already have eternal salvation, forgiveness for their sins, they are justified, Holy, righteous in God's sight, their names are in the Book of life. Paul mentions this in Ephesians 2:4-9..
SEcond death: The first death is the physical death people of all people when they go to the grave. The second death is suffered because even the unbelievers will be resurrected on the last day and will stand before Jesus in judgment. But after their final judgement, they will be cast into hell to die a second death in the lake of burning sulfur.
Where does the Bible say that anyone will be cast into hell to die a second death ?________

First of all, what is the Bible's definition of the lake of fire, isn't it 'second death' according to Rev. 20 vs 13,14 ?

After everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' [ meaning resurrected out of biblical hell ] then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic 'second death' for hell. Aren't both vacated hell and enemy death cast into 'second death' ?

The first or earlier resurrection for those of Rev. 20 v 6 are resurrected to heaven, to be followed by those who will later be resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' coming millennial-long day of reigning over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom such as those who lived and died before Jesus - John 3 v 13 - when there will be [ Acts 24 v 15 future tense ] a future resurrection for both the righteous and the unrighteous. The wicked are to be destroyed forever. -Psalm 92 v 7
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by robertwr View Post
FIRST RESURRECTION-SECOND DEATH
THE FIRST RESURRECTION "He that over comes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Revelation 2:11, 20:6). The first resurrection is when a person is "born anew...born of the water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5). "And you did he make ALIVE when you were dead...made us ALIVE together with Christ (by grace have you been saved), and RAISED US UP with him" (Ephesians 2:1-6; Galatians 2:18-19; 3:1). The first resurrection is when, "We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was RAISED FROM THE DEAD" (Romans 6:3-4). "And you did he MAKE ALIVE...even when WE WERE DEAD through our trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ...and RAISED US UP with him" (Ephesians 2:1-6). "I say unto you, the hour comes, and now is when THE DEAD shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and THEY THAT HEAR SHALL LIVE" (John 5:25). "There are only two alternatives, the crown of life-eternal life-or the second death" Homer Hailey, Revelation, Page 128, Baker Book House. It is life or death, not life in Heaven or life in Hell. Death is real.
"But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even while we were dead because of our sins, he GAVE US LIFE when he raised Christ from the dead...FOR HE RAISED US FROM THE DEAD ALONG WITH CHRIST" (Ephesians 2:4 New Living Bible).
"But God, rich in mercy, for the great love he bore us, BROUGHT US TO LIFE WITH CHRIST...HE RAISED US UP" (Ephesians 2:4 New English Bible).
All that are in the grave, both saved and lost, will hear His voice and come forth at the resurrection. All will be raised for judgment. All who are born again, made alive by being raised with Christ through Baptism; and live faithful shall not be hurt of the second death after the judgment. Christ paid the wages of sin for them. All others will pay their own wages of sin, which is death (Romans 6:23). "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone; WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH" (Revelation 21:8). From this death there will never be a resurrection. The results will be eternal. An endless life of torment is not a second death; it is eternal LIFE with torment. IT BEARS NO RESEMBLANCE TO A DEATH. To feel pain, those in Hell would have to be just as alive as those in Heaven are. For an immortal, immaterial soul that cannot be dead to be forever alive and tormented in a literal lake of fire is so dissimilar to death that a person would be in desperate need to prove his or her theology to say death is an eternal life of torment.
"THE SECOND DEATH" is used four times, all in Revelation.
(1) He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death (Revelation 2:11). The saved will not have a part in the second death. Only the lost.
(2) Those who are buried and raised with Christ (Romans 6) in the first resurrection, "Over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:6).
(3) Death and hades, and any not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire; which is the second death. All three come to the same end. All three end in death (Revelation 20:14-15).
(4) He that overcomes shall inherit and be God's son, but for all others, "Their part shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8). No ransom has been offered for the second death. It is forever.
SECOND DEATH IN PLAIN UNSYMBOLIC LANGUAGE
"There remains no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of JUDGMENT, and a fierceness of fire which shall DEVOUR the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:27). For the lost (1) judgment then (2) devour in the lake of fire, which is the second death. Not as it is preached today (1) judgment (2) then an eternal life of torment in Hell forever but never devoured, or as preached by many an eternal life in Hell at death before and without the resurrection and judgment day.
"IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YOU SHALL DIE" “For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die (apothncesko); but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live” (Romans 8:13). All mankind, even the faithful, have been dying the first death since the sin of Adam, this is not a reference to the first death but the second when only those who live according to the flesh will die. Paul did not say, "If you live after the flesh you are now spiritually dead," but "YOU shall die." Not your soul shall live forever separated from God, but "YOU shall die." Why do many that say they believe God but work hard to change His word? "But if by the Spirit YOU put to death the deeds of the body, YOU shall live." It is YOU that will live or die, not A PART OF YOU that will always live and cannot die.
“For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Not the death of the flesh which all die, but the second death.
“I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died (apothncesko). This is the bread which came down out of Heaven, that a man may eat thereof , and not die (apothncesko)” (John 6:48-50). All die the first death, even the apostles, but there will be a resurrection at the coming of Christ and those who eat of the bread that came down out of Heaven will not die the second death, all that do not eat of it will die the second death”
“I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes on me though he die (apothncesko), yet shall he live; and whosoever lives and believes on me shall never die (apothncesko)” (John 11:25-26). Although those who believe will die the first death just all do, they will be resurrected and never die the second death, those who do not believe will also die and be resurrected for judgment and will die the second death. “For the hour comes in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28-29). “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:26-27).
“For the land (those who were once enlightened and fell away Hebrews 6:4-6) which has drunk the rain that comes oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receives blessing form God: but if it bears thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to e burned” (Hebrews 6:4-8). Those that fall away will be burned in the lake of fire, which is the second death just as thorns are burned.
FOR THERE TO BE LIFE FOR THOSE WHO DIE THE SECOND DEATH THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE A RESURRECTION FROM THAT DEATH. THERE IS NOTHING SAID ABOUT A RESURRECTION FROM THE SECOND DEATH. MANY CHANGE "DEATH" TO "LIFE," BY CHANGING "THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH" TO "THE WAGES OF SIN IS ETERNAL LIFE WITH TORMENT."
DEATH IS MADE TO BE NOT DEATH BUT A MERE CHANGE IN THE MODE OF EXISTENCE. TO MANY, DEATH MEANS TO BE ALIVE, TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, BUT SEPARATED FROM GOD AND TORMENTED BY GOD. TO MAKE THE WORD "DEATH" FIT THEIR VIEW; THEY MUST MAKE IT FIGURATIVE. THE TRUE MEANING OF THE WORD WILL DESTROY THEIR VIEW. ALL PLAIN PASSAGES LIKE ROMANS 6:23 (THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH) MUST BE MADE INTO FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, BUT THEY CANNOT TELL US HOW THEY KNOW WHAT THE FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE MEANS. THEY CANNOT TELL US HOW THEY KNOW "DEATH" MEANS "LIFE."
The first death is the end of life of the flesh (life as it exist now). The second death then must also be the end of life (life as it will exist then), or it is not a second death, but something altogether different from death. An everlasting life of torment is not a second death. In the traditional concept, a person has an immortal soul, which neither the first or second death can kill, therefore; death must be made to be something other than death. On about every page throughout the New Testament it is life or death, not just reward or punishment. THE UNSAVED DIE, PERISH, ARE DESTROYED, AND ARE LOST. THE OBEDIENT ARE SAVED FROM DEATH AND GIVEN LIFE AND IMMORTALITY AT THE JUDGMENT. If the soul now has eternal life, if it is immortal and cannot die, then much of the language of the Bible has no meaning and is saying nothing. WHY IS THERE SO MUCH IN THE BIBLE ON DEATH WHEN THERE IS NO DEATH? Many have believed what their preacher or church says and have rejected the Bible as being untrue.
If all have an immortal soul that have everlasting life it could never receive the wage of sin, death, for it would not be subject to death. An immortal soul could not die, and would have no need for Christ to die in its place. Christ could not give life to those who believe Him for they would have been born with eternal life and cannot die. Eternal life is frequently promised to the righteous, but never to the wicked. If they do not have eternal life, they cannot endure eternal torment.
God said it the way He meant it.
(1.) LIFE is life, not just a reward to a part of a person that now has eternal LIFE and can never be dead.
(2.) DEATH is death and it is the opposite of life, not a different form of life. Not eternal life with torment.
(3.) DESTRUCTION is destruction. Destruction does not mean there is a part of a person that can never be destroyed.
(4.) END is end, not going on without an end.
(5.) KILL is to end life and does not mean never able to be killed, never able to end life.
(6.) BURNED UP is burned up. Not never able to be burned up.
(7.) CONSUMED is consumed. Not never able to be consumed.
(8.) PERISH is perish. Not just a loss of well being to those who cannot perish.
(9.) SLEEP is sleep. Not to be awake in Heaven or Hell.
THERE IS NO WAY GOD COULD HAVE SAID THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH ANYMORE CLEARER THAN HE DID.
Death makes Hell impossible
Hell makes death impossible
If there is no death, there cannot be a resurrection of the undead. If there is no resurrection, we have no hope 1 Corinthians 15:16-19. CAN THERE BE A DOCTRINE MORE HARMFUL THAN THE DOCTRINE OF HELL, WHICH TAKES AWAY OUR RESURRECTION AND HOPE OF SALVATION?
robertwr.com
Even the understanding of immortality counters the idea o f eternal torment. For if something is immortal it cannot suffer that which is suffered by that which is mortal. Hence an immortal eye cannot suffer damage. An immortal face cannot be marred. An immortal leg cannot be broken. An immortal body could not suffer burning, etc..
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:20 AM
 
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I'm sorry but at ,(John 3:3-5), ISN'T referring to ANY Resurrection, Jesus was referring to being baptized. (Rev. 2:1), Jehovah God ,(Exo. 6:3), is basically speaking about one NOT receiving a “SECOND DEATH”. Here, God is literally speaking of those who HAVE BEEN RESURRECTED!remember ,(Rom. 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord). Once one dies, and MANY WILL DIE!,their sins are forgiven, and slate is wiped clean ,(Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin). MANY think the faithful who had died ,will resurrect to life. But the wicked who died, will resurrect just to be destroyed, or go to a “hellfire”. Which makes NO sense considering Jehovah NEVER created a “hellfire”. And he wouldn't bring one from Heaven or a “hellfire” ,to judge them...again! Daniel understood what Jehovah meant at ,(Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt).


MANY be-it once wicked or righteous, WILL BERESURRECTED! After the DESTRUCTION of ALL those who REFUSED to acknowledge Jesus Father, and do his will ,(Matt.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father whichis in heaven). Those who WILL have a chance ONCE again, TO DO RIGHT by Jehovah God,This IS their first resurrection! MANY TRUE followers of Jesus, and servants of Jehovah God. WILL live through Armageddon, in which MANY who went against God will be destroyed ,(Rev.16:14,16).and (Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years), is referring to those who will live in Heaven and rule over the earth of faithful followers ,were once dead, but were raised.(Rev. 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth), They will NEVER DIE AGAIN!,they escape the“SECOND DEATH”.


We ALL were dead, meaning ,we didn't have that chance of eternal live as Jehovah originally plan ,as he first did with Adam and eve. Because of their disobedience ,they lost their life, and cost us ours ,(Rom.5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous). It was Jesus who made it where we NOW could gain eternal life, EVEN if we die! And the “SOUL”, IS A LIVING BEING, Jesus proved this ,(Luke 12:19 AndI will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry). And God's word shows this ,(Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul), So the SOUL CAN DIE! and it's NOT just“believing” what man says, it's what Jehovah God has said ,(Gen.2:16,17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt SURELY DIE).


With the “SECOND DEATH”, there's NO resurrection. Those who made it through Armageddon, and those who were resurrected. Had a chance tolive right while satan was lock away, (Rev.20:1-3), and there was NO more wickedness. But once satan is let loose, he WILL once again weak havoc on righteous mankind, causing them to choose between doing right or wrong ,(Rev. 20:7,8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea).When Jesus and his ARMY goes on the attack. Those who LIVED though the great tribulation, and those who were resurrected ,(WHICH TRUELY WOULD BE A “SECOND DEATH” to them, since they had died before), who began to follow satan. Right along with satan and his demons will be destroyed FOREVER! This is what the SYMBOLIC “Lakes of fire” means. Which includes Jehovah God making it were NO ONE WOULD ever DIE AGAIN. So there would be NO need for “hell” which is ONLY a place one is put when they die. Or a place which one has died. See ,(Jonah 2:1,2 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me;out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice), which would have been in a sense a grave if he had died there. peace
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Old 09-17-2013, 11:03 AM
 
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Another attempt at disproving hell? Really?

Nothing better to do? Do you honestly think you're going to convince anyone?
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