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Old 12-20-2009, 07:53 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,487,457 times
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Over the years I have seen a phenomenon which I call the Eternal Torment Syndrome.

Many people who have been taught and accepted the idea of eternal torment in hell for all who are not "saved" are victims of Modern Christian teaching. Imagine a mother who believes her children will be writing in torment a million years from now. Since she cannot bear the thought she tries to find something which will lower the threshold of salvation to the point that her children who continue to commit sin will be delivered from hell.

The result is the modern Christian doctrines which eliminate the necessity of obedience to the ten commandments. Some have the threshold of salvation so low that if someone says they believe in Jesus they are not only saved but cannot be lost - even if they were to late reject Christ completely.

This is a very appealing doctrine to someone whose relatives or children have died as a sinner but claimed to believe in Jesus.


I think that all who are truly born of God do agree 100% that you must keep the commandments of God - they may differ in other areas but all accept the necessity of ceasing from sin by keeping the ten commandments. That is what the Spirit of God teaches because that is what Jesus taught - "...if you would enter life keep the commandments".
As believers we have a great deal of latitude to be wrong on something - we do not have to agree 100% on everything - but on the question of "What must I do to have eternal life?" there is no autonomy - we must repent of sin and keep the commandments.

Sin is transgression of the law and that law is the ten commandments. Those who continue to wilfully disobey are not children of God and no amount of wishful thinking will change their fate. All who have not repented will receive the death sentence and eternal destruction - not eternal torment.

We are not doing those who still commit sin a favor to tell them they have eternal life because they believe and obey what they "think" God wants them to do. Rather we should plainly warn them that those believers who commit sin remain children of the devil. They believe but are not converted.



HK
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Old 12-20-2009, 08:14 PM
 
Location: East Coast
26,949 posts, read 17,622,977 times
Reputation: 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Over the years I have seen a phenomenon which I call the Eternal Torment Syndrome.

Many people who have been taught and accepted the idea of eternal torment in hell for all who are not "saved" are victims of Modern Christian teaching. Imagine a mother who believes her children will be writing in torment a million years from now. Since she cannot bear the thought she tries to find something which will lower the threshold of salvation to the point that her children who continue to commit sin will be delivered from hell.

The result is the modern Christian doctrines which eliminate the necessity of obedience to the ten commandments. Some have the threshold of salvation so low that if someone says they believe in Jesus they are not only saved but cannot be lost - even if they were to late reject Christ completely.

This is a very appealing doctrine to someone whose relatives or children have died as a sinner but claimed to believe in Jesus.


I think that all who are truly born of God do agree 100% that you must keep the commandments of God - they may differ in other areas but all accept the necessity of ceasing from sin by keeping the ten commandments. That is what the Spirit of God teaches because that is what Jesus taught - "...if you would enter life keep the commandments".
As believers we have a great deal of latitude to be wrong on something - we do not have to agree 100% on everything - but on the question of "What must I do to have eternal life?" there is no autonomy - we must repent of sin and keep the commandments.

Sin is transgression of the law and that law is the ten commandments. Those who continue to wilfully disobey are not children of God and no amount of wishful thinking will change their fate. All who have not repented will receive the death sentence and eternal destruction - not eternal torment.

We are not doing those who still commit sin a favor to tell them they have eternal life because they believe and obey what they "think" God wants them to do. Rather we should plainly warn them that those believers who commit sin remain children of the devil. They believe but are not converted.



HK
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.Romans 13 :9-10

There's a very good reason why therefore is there for .

Can i get an Amen Harold ?
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:12 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 1,992,947 times
Reputation: 629
We never stop sinning. This is the purpose of confession,repentance and forgiveness.Jesus died for our sins on the cross. When we receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior, our sins are totally forgiven,at that moment. From that point on we need to confess,repent and ask for forgiveness each and every day.Because we sin everyday. Please read all of I John for a better understanding.

Me, you, and everyone on here who posts have sinned in Jesus's eyes . .

Yes even you Harold? Why? Have you not been judging, sarcastic, condemning and self-righteous . . .Yes, you have . . .and so have I and other's . . . that is sin Harold?????

We sin here all the time when we make unkind remarks to eachother . . . and those aren't the so called sins of ignorance . . . . you sin deliberately by judging and so does everyone else here . . . . we are all guilty, thankfully, we have a Saviour, we all need one . . . including you.
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:16 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 1,992,947 times
Reputation: 629
1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


How to stop sinning? Stop breathing.
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:54 PM
 
17,943 posts, read 13,636,219 times
Reputation: 5759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Over the years I have seen a phenomenon which I call the Eternal Torment Syndrome.

Many people who have been taught and accepted the idea of eternal torment in hell for all who are not "saved" are victims of Modern Christian teaching. Imagine a mother who believes her children will be writing in torment a million years from now. Since she cannot bear the thought she tries to find something which will lower the threshold of salvation to the point that her children who continue to commit sin will be delivered from hell.

The result is the modern Christian doctrines which eliminate the necessity of obedience to the ten commandments. Some have the threshold of salvation so low that if someone says they believe in Jesus they are not only saved but cannot be lost - even if they were to late reject Christ completely.

This is a very appealing doctrine to someone whose relatives or children have died as a sinner but claimed to believe in Jesus.


I think that all who are truly born of God do agree 100% that you must keep the commandments of God - they may differ in other areas but all accept the necessity of ceasing from sin by keeping the ten commandments. That is what the Spirit of God teaches because that is what Jesus taught - "...if you would enter life keep the commandments".
As believers we have a great deal of latitude to be wrong on something - we do not have to agree 100% on everything - but on the question of "What must I do to have eternal life?" there is no autonomy - we must repent of sin and keep the commandments.

Sin is transgression of the law and that law is the ten commandments. Those who continue to wilfully disobey are not children of God and no amount of wishful thinking will change their fate. All who have not repented will receive the death sentence and eternal destruction - not eternal torment.

We are not doing those who still commit sin a favor to tell them they have eternal life because they believe and obey what they "think" God wants them to do. Rather we should plainly warn them that those believers who commit sin remain children of the devil. They believe but are not converted.



HK
The entire purpose of the Law was to show man that he cannot keep the law and therefore cannot save himself by the law. The purpose of the Law which consisted of hundreds of laws, not just the ten commandments, was to show man's need for a Savior. Jesus Christ Did keep the law. And in Him, the law is fulfilled. The believer is in union with Christ and therefore rests in and depends upon the perfect righteousness of Christ. Further, at the point of faith in Christ, God the Father imputes His perfect righteousness to the believer, and pronounces him justified.

The Pharisees were sticklers for keeping the law, and Christ condemned them for their hypocrisy, calling them white washed tombstones full of dead mens bones (Matthew 23:27).

Paul made it clear that the Law is set aside for the church.

What does Galatians 3:21 say? ''Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22) But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23) But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24) Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25) But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

Do the Scriptures not say that faith brings righteousness?

What does Phil. 3:2 say? ''This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3) Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4) Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indded it was in vain? 5) Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miraclesamong you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6) Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

We are in Christ who fulfilled the Law. The Law was never for the church. It was for Israel during the age of Israel.

God is not impressed with the futile attempts of man to earn salvation. Titus 3:5 '' He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6) whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7) that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And what is God's opinion of human righteousness? Isa. 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like menstrual rags.

God is not impressed by our righteousness. He is only impressed with His own perfect and absolute righteousness. The very righteousness that He gives us through faith in Christ.

Romans 11:6 says, ''But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

The hardest people to reach concerning the grace of God, are those religious, self righteous people who foolishly think that they can do anything to impress God with their own efforts. There are going to be millions and millions of religious self righteous people in the eternal lake of fire, because they depended on their works for salvation, instead of on the finished work of Christ on the Cross, on their behalf.

Salvation is a free gift from God, received through faith in Christ without any works involved.

The spiritual life After salvation will result in spiritual production. But it has nothing to do with maintaining salvation.

Well, for anyone who may be interested, both the book of Romans and the book of Galatians explains that the church is not under law, but is under grace. And we do not have to keep the sabbath. Jesus Christ IS the sabbath. And the church age believer is in Christ.
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:55 PM
 
5,294 posts, read 4,059,448 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The entire purpose of the Law was to show man that he cannot keep the law and therefore cannot save himself by the law.
Hey there, Just had to point a little something out. You say the ENTIRE purpose...

The law is a schoolmaster.

The law was put into place because for one reason, human beings were to learn of Love.

The law was a schoolmaster, the first step.

Jesus became the absolute personification of LOVE.

Read again the two great commandments.

When truth (love) is written on your heart, you no longer have need for the law. We are in the process of learning this.

Where there is true LOVE, the kind of love Jesus spoke of, there is NO NEED for the law. That's what it's all about.


"Thou shalt not yell mean curses at your husband."
I would laugh out loud if someone came up to me and started yelling that at me. Do you know why? Because I have NO NEED for that law. I love my husband with a beautiful love. I would never yell mean curses at my husband. It wouldn't even cross my mind to do so. Perhaps when we were younger, I needed that law.... but that was before LOVE was written in my heart. DEEP love. Agape love. Mature love. (LOVE!)


People misunderstand the beautiful plan. They think that it's God laying down some laws, us not following them, God being angry with us and sending down his son to pour out all of his wrath and anger on him instead of us. Then when we don't choose him, He still pours out his wrath on us anyway by tormenting us for all eternity.

So, like I said I disagree that the ENTIRE purpose of the law was to show man that he cannot keep it. I believe that there is SOME purpose of the law to show man that man cannot be WITHOUT God. Mankind cannot rule itself. The creature NEEDS his CREATOR.
Who is man's Creator? Well it says that "God is love". That's pretty darn amazing. GOD IS LOVE. wow. He's not just lovING. HE *IS* Love.

I believe part of what we are learning is that we NEED God.
And we cannot BE without Him. We will cling to Him and be so in AWE of Him for all eternity. His goodness knows no limits. His goodness, His love knows no limits. How amazing. How breathtakingly beautiful to ponder that.

We are all brothers and sisters.
We look through a glass darkly...for some, VERY VERY darkly.
but not for always...
One day...
Every knee will bow... out of the sheer weight of His love.
Every tongue will confess, Jesus is Lord...
Everyone will be in absolute, stunned awe of our Great Creator.
It will be a fine, fine day.
When all of Creation is reconciled back to it's Creator.
And His magnficent plan is finally CRYSTAL CLEAR.

Just some thoughts.
peace.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:13 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,487,457 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
We sin here all the time when we make unkind remarks to eachother . . . and those aren't the so called sins of ignorance . . . . you sin deliberately by judging and so does everyone else here . . . . we are all guilty, thankfully, we have a Saviour, we all need one . . . including you.
[/quote]

If you knew what sin was we would not be having this chat. Sin is transgression of the law and we are commanded to judge and cast out the wicked from among us.

So your opinions are just that - and you know what the say about opinions. As for me I prefer the opinion of Jesus - the same fellow who said this about false teachers....


"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in."

"You blind men..."

"...straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!"

"...full of extortion and rapacity."

"...you appear righteous to men but within you are full of hypocrisy
and iniquity."

"You serpents, you brood of vipers..."

"Blind guides..."

"...how are you to escape being sentenced to hell."

Now, there was a Man with the right attitude! Do you think that Jesus did not have the fruit of the Spirit

In the future when I want an uninformed opinion I will check with you - when I want the truth I will listen to Jesus...

HK
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 5,851,638 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold
If you knew what sin was we would not be having this chat. Sin is transgression of the law and we are commanded to judge and cast out the wicked from among us.

So your opinions are just that - and you know what the say about opinions. As for me I prefer the opinion of Jesus - the same fellow who said this about false teachers....


"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in."

"You blind men..."

"...straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!"

"...full of extortion and rapacity."

"...you appear righteous to men but within you are full of hypocrisy
and iniquity."

"You serpents, you brood of vipers..."

"Blind guides..."

"...how are you to escape being sentenced to hell."

Now, there was a Man with the right attitude! Do you think that Jesus did not have the fruit of the Spirit

In the future when I want an uninformed opinion I will check with you - when I want the truth I will listen to Jesus...

HK
Amen.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:23 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,487,457 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


How to stop sinning? Stop breathing.

Have no sin - go here
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 5,851,638 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Have no sin - go here
Amen.
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