Are You an Unbeliever? Have I got News for You! (Moses, sin)

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by dorado0359

You've been indoctrinated.

Yes. With the Word of the Living God.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by scottmac112

Well, I can't argue with Scripture. So I'll ask a simple question, because you seem not to have understood me previously. Isn't our job as Christians to bring people closer to the Lord, not drive them away from Him? Let them deal with the entirety of the Scripture themselves. Let's just hurry up and get them to the Lord so they can be saved by His Grace, for God's sake!

We don't get anyone to the Lord He chooses us, we do not choose Him, He seeks us, we do not seek Him....

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by scottmac112

Honestly, we don't know that any sacred person exists with 100% uncertainty. Just like you people don't know with 100% uncertainty that Heaven isn't floating around somewhere in the Universe. You haven't seen it all. Make a map of the entire Universe, show me that there's nothing but stars and planets and galaxies out there, and you'll change me as much as I can change you.

We are, too, pretty darn certain that God does, in fact, exist. Why? We see the good, rather than the bad, in what he does. We look at the miracles. We look at the beautiful world we live in. We don't look at the murders of some extremists. We don't look at a fraction of undefined space and not see Heaven, and therefore deny that there is a possibility that it exists.

So, none of us really know that such a being exists. He may have said that he knows, but I don't know for sure. I believe in things that can't realistically be proven. I never thought that our country would be brought to a point of shame by liberals. But look at it in its current state, and tell me that we haven't suffered a terrible fall from grace. No, we can't prove with 100% accuracy that God does exist. We have a Book and faith. Unshakable faith, and a time-honored book.

nobody can see air....

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Mike555

To the contrary. The Bible makes it clear that you do have a choice and that you do have the responsibility to make that choice. I was quite clear in my last post.

What did Jesus say but that;

John 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.

'Unless you believe' =CHOICE=free will=volition--to believe or not to believe.

Plain, straight forward, crystal clear in its meaning, can't be misunderstood. And yet people still deny it.

Every time you see the word 'believe', it means to take the responsibility on yourself to make a choice to believe or not to believe. That is free will.

It is by the sovereignty of God that man has free will. That is why when God put Adam and the woman in the garden, He gave their free will something to work with. God put a particular tree in the garden and gave the command to not eat of it. This was to give them a choice to obey or disobey Him. God had told them the consequences of disobedience and they still made the choice to disobey God. God allowed this in order to bring about the next phase in His plan of restoring man to a relationship with Him through the work of Christ on the Cross. God permitted the fall of man. And he permits man to either accept of reject His offer of salvation. That is why God created man in the first place. That and the fact that what God does, He does for His own glory, His own pleasure. God does not want robots. He wants man to choose whether or not he wants a relationship with God.

You do not seem to understand the Sovreignty of God...
So, the first phase of God's plan was for man to fall?
You have a very dim understanding of scripture...
Why does He want a relationship with us?

[Lamplight]

Originally Posted by Mike555

If you truly did believe in Christ for salvation, that is to trust Him for your salvation, without adding any works to that faith, then even though you no longer believe in Him, you are stilled saved. You cannot lose your salvation. You'll simply feel a little silly when you wake up in Heaven. Such is the grace, the character of God.

Well that's good to know. Regardless, I'm not worried about it.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Mike555

And He draws or calls man through the Gospel. 2 Thess. 2:14

And would you pit John 6:44 against Jeremiah 29:13. ''And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.''

Rightly divide the Word of truth. Don't isolate verses and try to make them mean something that they don't.

A person answers the call of the Gospel by making the choice to believe in Christ and then God the Holy Spirit takes it from there and makes that faith effective for salvation. He carries that faith to the point of salvation. God does all the work in salvation and man makes the choice to accept it or reject it. Simple.

No, it is totally taken out of the hands of men, how else could God have written the names in the book of life before the foundations of the world...God says no one seeks Him, no one...I sought you, you did not seek Me, I chose you, you did not choose me...in a sense we do choose, but, who is in reality behind that choice?

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Yes they do Richard, it is clear in scripture

But, who is behind that choice? i do rightly divide the word...parts of scripture are from man's perspective and parts of scripture are from God's perspective...God clearly says that we did not choose Him, but He chose us, we did not seek Him, but He sought us...Christ also says that no one comes to the Father except thru Him, and no one comes to Him except the Father draws Him...and those that the father gives me, i will not lose...no one can pluck them from my hand...Romans is a good letter to understand what is meant by predestination and it is also alluded to in other epistles...

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Draw does mean "to drag" Mike

drag is to indicate against one will, for our will is not unto righteousness but unto unrighteousness....

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Lamplight

At this point in my life, for me to believe in God I'd have to fool myself into doing so. I would have to somehow mentally trick myself into thinking I believe. I was once a believer, but now I simply cannot lie to myself any longer. When I was younger, I believed because I was raised to believe. I was talked into it, basically. Now I would be just as successful at deciding to believe in elves or goblins. Would you suddenly believe in elves because someone told you they are real? Hopefully not.

What did you believe once, if you don't mind me asking?

Personally, I think most of our 'disbelief' is based on the emotions more than convictions. Some people walk away from the faith, based on some difficulties in their life, we may become disappointed with God when we want Him to do something and He does not.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

You do not seem to understand the Sovreignty of God...
So, the first phase of God's plan was for man to fall?
You have a very dim understanding of scripture...
Why does He want a relationship with us?

Calvinists I know teach that the fall of man was designed and pre-determined by God.