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Old 12-21-2009, 06:13 PM
 
17,951 posts, read 13,647,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
We were all unbelievers my friend
So true. We were all born into the slave market of sin, and in need of salvation.
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,713 posts, read 11,467,089 times
Reputation: 4230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

The choice is yours. It is the greatest decision you will ever make in your life, and the results of that decision have eternal ramifications. Eternity in the presence of God or eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. It is not a decision to be taken lightly. But it is your decision.
This is what you're ultimately coming down on the side of though, isn't it? For all the eloquence, all the nice thoughts and explanations of why Jesus came and all the apologetics involved with a nice, friendly answer - it boils down to veiled threats at the hands of a celestial monster.

This is not only the annoying and arrogant thing about fundamentalist Christianity, but it's also one of the largest problems with it. There's something about it that gives you the self-perceived right to speak down to me with the conviction that this is not just what you believe but what you know is true. The second anyone begins to speak to me about theological implications with the arrogant position of what they know rather than what they believe, is the second they begin to lose me.

You impute to me that you know there is a God who demands such pithy and pathetic groveling, submission, and ass-kissing to the extent that you try to force me to make a decision. The concept of that is not love, is not justice, and is not fairness. It's mandated brain-washing at the threat of eternal torture.

Ask yourself what is different between a North Korean dissident who refuses to worship 'The Dear Leader' as his 'Almighty' and an unbeliever who refuses to worship your God as my 'Almighty?' They both share a very similar fate. One will almost definitely end up in a gulag, tortured for the rest of his life until he's finally killed. The other, according to the celestial monstrosity you believe in, will be sent to Hell, tortured in unmerciful pain for the rest of eternity. In fact, one might be prone to saying that the only advantage to living in North Korea as opposed to living in a Celestial Totalitarian State is that at least you can die and get the hell out of North Korea!

And that's what it ultimately boils down to. It's not about recognizing anything "noble" about Jesus' sacrifices; it's not about finding anything the whole of humanity can connect with. It's ultimately about fear - the fear of torture, of eternal despair and horror. If that's what you want to worship then go ahead. But, don't talk to me as though it's something you feel I should even consider as being worthy of consideration for me to worship.

Not only am I glad that I don't believe in such a thing but I am very grateful there is no evidence to support such a maniacal, sick and twisted celestial dictator.

Keep pressing on though... I'm sure you'll scare someone into submission with fear tactics and veiled threats. But, it won't be me.
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,958 posts, read 4,437,835 times
Reputation: 917
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
celestial monster.

You impute to me that you know there is a God who demands such pithy and pathetic groveling, submission, and ass-kissing to the extent that you try to force me to make a decision.

Not only am I glad that I don't believe in such a thing but I am very grateful there is no evidence to support such a maniacal, sick and twisted celestial dictator.
Leave it to you to spew such venom at our God. Try and re-read your angry childish language at someone you believe does not exist? How strange is that? Yelling and name calling? Come on isn't that a bit infantile?

Quote:
Keep pressing on though... I'm sure you'll scare someone into submission with fear tactics and veiled threats. But, it won't be me.
Oh we see because you've already cussed out a being you believe doesn't exist, and well by golly, your so great you resist to the bitter end what next your going to grab your little gold AK47 and shoot at the sky? Silly
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:01 PM
 
2 posts, read 2,344 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacx View Post
Us unbelievers have heard it already and choose not to believe. People who are searching for answers have not made the decision on whether to accept or reject christianity. Therefore, are "searchers", not unbelievers.

I'm well aware that as per christians my eternal future will not be Heaven, nor am I concerned, but it wasn't your "god" that told me this as nobody or nothing directed me to the gospel outside of my own curiosity.
Hey, Hey, my first post.
I don't believe you or anyone else chose to believe, you can't believe until the Father draws you through his son Jesus.
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,713 posts, read 11,467,089 times
Reputation: 4230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks View Post
Leave it to you to spew such venom at our God. Try and re-read your angry childish language at someone you believe does not exist? How strange is that? Yelling and name calling? Come on isn't that a bit infantile?
I didn't yell or name call anything or anybody. I put in bold certain words for emphasis. I did however, point out a very valid point - the threat of what happens for failure to worship is no different than what happens in a totalitarian state. If I did so in a way that seemed harsh or critical it's because this thread was directed at unbelievers - I should at least be allowed to give my opinion, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks View Post
Oh we see because you've already cussed out a being you believe doesn't exist, and well by golly, your so great you resist to the bitter end what next your going to grab your little gold AK47 and shoot at the sky? Silly
I think your anger is amplifying what I actually said, Marks. You want so badly to think that I cussed out a being I don't believe in because you hate what I said. You must make me wicked, evil, bad and humiliated in your mind (and in public) so as to satiate your own desire for refusing to acknowledge what I said. In so doing, you can relegate my statements to that of a "raving lunatic" to deny it and to blow it off.

In the end, the only childish comments are the ones that are as transparent as what you've written above.

It's ok. You're human and I forgive you.

Last edited by GCSTroop; 12-23-2009 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 12-23-2009, 07:41 PM
 
241 posts, read 209,060 times
Reputation: 129
No thanks.
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Old 12-23-2009, 07:56 PM
 
17,951 posts, read 13,647,909 times
Reputation: 5762
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirriam View Post
No thanks.
People spend eternity in the lake of fire by their own choice. Not by God's will. God extends the offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. The offer is free to accept or reject. The offer is extended only while you are alive on this earth. After you die, it is too late to choose.
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Old 12-23-2009, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Lubbock, Texas
331 posts, read 410,934 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
People spend eternity in the lake of fire by their own choice. Not by God's will. God extends the offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. The offer is free to accept or reject. The offer is extended only while you are alive on this earth. After you die, it is too late to choose.
The problem here is that they have been lulled into a false sense of security here. They see nothing wrong with the deviant way that they live their life. And we're helping nothing here by preaching hellfire and brimstone. IMHO, we need to simply quit telling them, for one, that they're going to HELL! That gets us nowhere, and just makes us look bad as people. If you don't believe me, look at any post by local atheist (and that's putting it nicely) AxisMundi. We should instead preach forgiveness, and our strength through the Lord. They seem to love concrete examples of how living life with a spiritual leader is better, if anybody can provide examples.
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Old 12-23-2009, 09:29 PM
 
17,951 posts, read 13,647,909 times
Reputation: 5762
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
This is what you're ultimately coming down on the side of though, isn't it? For all the eloquence, all the nice thoughts and explanations of why Jesus came and all the apologetics involved with a nice, friendly answer - it boils down to veiled threats at the hands of a celestial monster.

This is not only the annoying and arrogant thing about fundamentalist Christianity, but it's also one of the largest problems with it. There's something about it that gives you the self-perceived right to speak down to me with the conviction that this is not just what you believe but what you know is true. The second anyone begins to speak to me about theological implications with the arrogant position of what they know rather than what they believe, is the second they begin to lose me.

You impute to me that you know there is a God who demands such pithy and pathetic groveling, submission, and ass-kissing to the extent that you try to force me to make a decision. The concept of that is not love, is not justice, and is not fairness. It's mandated brain-washing at the threat of eternal torture.

Ask yourself what is different between a North Korean dissident who refuses to worship 'The Dear Leader' as his 'Almighty' and an unbeliever who refuses to worship your God as my 'Almighty?' They both share a very similar fate. One will almost definitely end up in a gulag, tortured for the rest of his life until he's finally killed. The other, according to the celestial monstrosity you believe in, will be sent to Hell, tortured in unmerciful pain for the rest of eternity. In fact, one might be prone to saying that the only advantage to living in North Korea as opposed to living in a Celestial Totalitarian State is that at least you can die and get the hell out of North Korea!

And that's what it ultimately boils down to. It's not about recognizing anything "noble" about Jesus' sacrifices; it's not about finding anything the whole of humanity can connect with. It's ultimately about fear - the fear of torture, of eternal despair and horror. If that's what you want to worship then go ahead. But, don't talk to me as though it's something you feel I should even consider as being worthy of consideration for me to worship.

Not only am I glad that I don't believe in such a thing but I am very grateful there is no evidence to support such a maniacal, sick and twisted celestial dictator.

Keep pressing on though... I'm sure you'll scare someone into submission with fear tactics and veiled threats. But, it won't be me.
Yes. I absolutely know that God exists and that Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Godhead, Himself co-equal and co-eternal with both God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit, took upon Himself the form of a man, came into the world and died for the sins of the world.

Far from being a celestial monster who threatens people with hell for not worshiping Him, God is absolute perfect holiness. His perfect righteousness and justice demands no less than perfection from His creatures. Since sin brought about the fall of man, a relationship with God is impossible apart from the grace of God in providing a means of restoration to fellowship with Him.

John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Because of what Christ did on the Cross, when a member of the human race believes in Christ for salvation, then God imputes His righteousness to that person and then pronounces him justified on the basis of His own imputed righteousness in that believer (Gal 3:6; Gal 3:26). God sees His righteousness in the believer and on that basis, the believer has a perfect standing before God.

God did everything that He could without compromising His integrity, in providing salvation for sinful fallen man. He extends the offer of salvation to those who will accept that offer by placing their trust--faith--belief in Christ.

The merit is not in the faith, but rather, the merit is in the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ.

And you can be glad that God did not compromise, and cannot compromise His character in providing salvation. For if He did, then He could not be trusted. A persons declaration of love is no stronger than their character. In His perfection God remains absolutely uncompromising in His perfect holiness and so can be trusted to always be absolutely and perfectly just in dealing with His creatures.

God does not force anyone to accept the offer of salvation. He extends the offer to all, so that whosoever will, may be saved. Those who are lost, remain under condemnation by their own choice.
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Old 12-23-2009, 09:47 PM
 
17,951 posts, read 13,647,909 times
Reputation: 5762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen of flannel View Post
Hey, Hey, my first post.
I don't believe you or anyone else chose to believe, you can't believe until the Father draws you through his son Jesus.
God calls fallen man through the Gospel (2 Thess. 2:14). The Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer of the Gospel and the responsibility belongs to the hearer to either believe, which means to place his trust in Christ for salvation, or to reject the Gospel and remain under condemnation.

Concerning man's free will, what does the word of God say but that;

Jeremiah 29:13 'And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

God reveals Himself to those who desire to know Him.
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