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Anyway, that aside, I really don't see what the admiration is behind this thought of Jesus dying for all my sins. Supposing that line of thinking is true and inerrant - I don't find it to be a very noble gesture at all. I didn't ask for it; I certainly don't want it and I would have done everything humanly possible to stop his barbaric torture and murder.
There's a word for that. It's called "ungratefulness". You didn't ask for veterans and currently serving soldiers to go to the Middle East and fight for your right to speak, or choose what you want. So, in this respect, you don't find soldiers fighting to be a noble gesture, and you want to stop their barbaric torture and murder of errant Muslims that want to put a stop to our free way of life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Everyone talks about the "fairness" and "righteous" judgment of God but I don't think any human being finds it very fair at all to be held accountable for the entire history of man's misbehavior. I don't feel any sort of remorse or guilt for things that happened in ancient Sumeria, Rome, the Dark Ages, and even during the Holocaust. I feel badly that many atrocious acts occurred but I don't feel guilt because I wasn't even alive to have participated in any of those things.
Holding me accountable for things that allegedly happened thousands of years ago, without my input, without my interaction in the world, and without my say, is like putting a 30-year old on trial for crimes they "might have committed" had they lived in Nazi Germany. It doesn't follow and it certainly doesn't make any sense.
Nobody ever said that you, I, or anyone else alive today, was responsible for those acts. Only those directly involved are responsible. As long as you've done no wrong, you have nothing to worry about.
What I'm curious about is why are you posting this here?
Most of my fellow unbelievers are over on the atheist/agnostic board or maybe on the broad "religion" category. Only a few of us stray over here to the christian board but it may be looking for something to debate with you about as we probably don't believe what you're trying to tell us anyway .
Of course, if you did post over on one of the other boards you'd probably get slammed, criticized, called a troll, etc. so is this kind of like a "safety zone"?
There's a word for that. It's called "ungratefulness". You didn't ask for veterans and currently serving soldiers to go to the Middle East and fight for your right to speak, or choose what you want. So, in this respect, you don't find soldiers fighting to be a noble gesture, and you want to stop their barbaric torture and murder of errant Muslims that want to put a stop to our free way of life?
As a matter of fact, I WAS one of those veterans and soldiers who went to the Middle East. But, I never felt like I was fighting for my right to speak or to choose what I want. Those who feel the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are about protecting our freedoms of speech or thought are sorely mistaken.
There is absolutely nothing noble about warfare, about bloodshed, or about dying for a cause. Those who feel so are only doomed to perpetuate such atrocities throughout the rest of human history.
We offer our thanks and gratitude to them because we understand the plight of their situation and what they sacrificed due to circumstances out of their control. The troops in the Middle East don't dictate policy, they don't make policy, and they certainly don't hold the rest of America accountable for giving them thanks (or not giving them thanks). That is what is to be admired about them. Anybody who views the death of one of them as "glorious" or "noble" is only voicing the same rhetoric that the terrorists do - that their death is glorious and noble and "worth" something. When, in the end, the lifeless body of a fallen soldier usually only amounts to a headline article, a name on a wall, and a picture on someone's mantelpiece. There's nothing glorious in any of that - ask any Medal of Honor winner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottmac112
Nobody ever said that you, I, or anyone else alive today, was responsible for those acts. Only those directly involved are responsible. As long as you've done no wrong, you have nothing to worry about.
True. I don't have anything to worry about at all and I sincerely don't.
However, the popular word on the street is that if I don't accept the sacrifice of Jesus as some noble cause, as some gesticulation of superior humanity, or as the atonement for all the things I (as well as the rest of mankind) have ever done wrong in my life, then I get punished for it.
To use your "Troops in the Middle East" analogy: It's like saying that I must show thanks to the troops who died (or put their lives on the line) because their death was "noble" and "glorious." It wasn't noble and glorious. I am, however, grateful for their sacrifices because I realize the impertinent, inhumane, and caustic way they died as a result of human barbarism - not because they wanted to hold their deaths over our heads as what should be a token of our appreciation.
Thus, my initial stance remains unchanged. If I am being forced to worship the death of Jesus as a "glorious" and "noble" one, then I find no connection with it at all. Any God who demands as such is not only barbaric himself but on the same level of any terrorist who insists their martyrdom is "righteous," "noble," and "glorious" as well.
As a matter of fact, I WAS one of those veterans and soldiers who went to the Middle East. But, I never felt like I was fighting for my right to speak or to choose what I want. Those who feel the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are about protecting our freedoms of speech or thought are sorely mistaken.
There is absolutely nothing noble about warfare, about bloodshed, or about dying for a cause. Those who feel so are only doomed to perpetuate such atrocities throughout the rest of human history.
We offer our thanks and gratitude to them because we understand the plight of their situation and what they sacrificed due to circumstances out of their control. The troops in the Middle East don't dictate policy, they don't make policy, and they certainly don't hold the rest of America accountable for giving them thanks (or not giving them thanks). That is what is to be admired about them. Anybody who views the death of one of them as "glorious" or "noble" is only voicing the same rhetoric that the terrorists do - that their death is glorious and noble and "worth" something. When, in the end, the lifeless body of a fallen soldier usually only amounts to a headline article, a name on a wall, and a picture on someone's mantelpiece. There's nothing glorious in any of that - ask any Medal of Honor winner.
True. I don't have anything to worry about at all and I sincerely don't.
However, the popular word on the street is that if I don't accept the sacrifice of Jesus as some noble cause, as some gesticulation of superior humanity, or as the atonement for all the things I (as well as the rest of mankind) have ever done wrong in my life, then I get punished for it.
To use your "Troops in the Middle East" analogy: It's like saying that I must show thanks to the troops who died (or put their lives on the line) because their death was "noble" and "glorious." It wasn't noble and glorious. I am, however, grateful for their sacrifices because I realize the impertinent, inhumane, and caustic way they died as a result of human barbarism - not because they wanted to hold their deaths over our heads as what should be a token of our appreciation.
Thus, my initial stance remains unchanged. If I am being forced to worship the death of Jesus as a "glorious" and "noble" one, then I find no connection with it at all. Any God who demands as such is not only barbaric himself but on the same level of any terrorist who insists their martyrdom is "righteous," "noble," and "glorious" as well.
GSCTroop,
I am in awe of your words again. I couldn't rep you since you typically have terrific posts, but again, you sum up my thoughts in so many beautiful ways. I am always curious how such a brilliant, brilliant mind came from Mississippi, but I won't go there...
Not that it's of utmost importance but I get the feeling that posting this in the Christianity Forum will largely fall in the category of "preaching to the choir" - no pun intended.
Perhaps this would have been better suited for the main forum?
Anyway, that aside, I really don't see what the admiration is behind this thought of Jesus dying for all my sins. Supposing that line of thinking is true and inerrant - I don't find it to be a very noble gesture at all. I didn't ask for it; I certainly don't want it and I would have done everything humanly possible to stop his barbaric torture and murder.
But, to thus say that I am being held accountable for all my "sins" by not accepting the mere thought or idea of Jesus being the son of God and having died for my sins is absolutely ridiculous.
Everyone talks about the "fairness" and "righteous" judgment of God but I don't think any human being finds it very fair at all to be held accountable for the entire history of man's misbehavior. I don't feel any sort of remorse or guilt for things that happened in ancient Sumeria, Rome, the Dark Ages, and even during the Holocaust. I feel badly that many atrocious acts occurred but I don't feel guilt because I wasn't even alive to have participated in any of those things.
Holding me accountable for things that allegedly happened thousands of years ago, without my input, without my interaction in the world, and without my say, is like putting a 30-year old on trial for crimes they "might have committed" had they lived in Nazi Germany. It doesn't follow and it certainly doesn't make any sense.
The fact that you as an unbeliever are here to read this shows that it is a good place to post the Gospel. People come onto this forum out of curiosity and some may have some interest in learning about Christ. Now, there's a lot here that is not in the least bit Christian. But that is an unfortunate reality. It only takes one person responding positively to the Gospel to make it worth posting here.
To be blunt, God didn't ask for your input. Or anyone elses. What God does, He does for His pleasure, His purpose, His glory. God's plan of salvation existed in His mind from eternity past, long before any human being was around to have any 'input.'
Everyone who is born into the human race was selected by God to be born. No one had any choice in the matter. No one existed so that they might have a choice in the matter. But having been selected by God to be born, we are born with free will, and God holds us responsible for how we use that free will.
Our own personal sins were never imputed to us for judgment. We are not condemned on the basis of our own personal sins. Our personal sins were temporarily set aside until that time in human history when in the fullness of time, Christ came into the world and went to the Cross so that He could die a substitutionary spiritual death on our behalf, and pay the penalty for our Sins.
The only sin that resulted in the spiritual death of everyone who is born, is Adams original sin. The human race is seminally in Adam. And because Adam is the federal head of the human race, it was his sin that God charged to the entire human race. The reason that God did this was to bring the entire human race under the umbrella of grace. He did this so that by the finished work of one man, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross, the many (whosoever believes in Him), might be justified in the eyes of God through faith in Christ Jesus, and therefore pass from spiritual death into eternal life in the presence of God.
This is the reality of our existance. God created the human race, He has revealed Himself through human history in various ways of His choosing. He has made salvation possible through faith in Jesus Christ, and He holds us responsible for our volitional decision to either accept His offer of salvation or to reject it.
Therefore the choice is yours.
Acts 16:31 ''...Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.''
The issue is;
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.''
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
The choice is yours. It is the greatest decision you will ever make in your life, and the results of that decision have eternal ramifications. Eternity in the presence of God or eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. It is not a decision to be taken lightly. But it is your decision.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-21-2009 at 05:58 PM..
What I'm curious about is why are you posting this here?
Most of my fellow unbelievers are over on the atheist/agnostic board or maybe on the broad "religion" category. Only a few of us stray over here to the christian board but it may be looking for something to debate with you about as we probably don't believe what you're trying to tell us anyway .
Of course, if you did post over on one of the other boards you'd probably get slammed, criticized, called a troll, etc. so is this kind of like a "safety zone"?
Someone coming onto this forum may be doing so looking for some answers. They are the ones who may respond to the Gospel. Someone looking for answers to the question ''Is there anything more to life?'' is more likely to respond to the gospel than someone who is not looking and couldn't care less.
Additionally, these threads end up on Google, and someone curious about the Gospel and googling 'The Gospel' or something simliar could be directed here. Those who are interested in their eternal future will be directed by God to the Gospel, God will get the Gospel to them by one means or another.
Wow. WOW. And I wonder why I waste my time typing out my senseless rants, when someone like you can come along and say it so effectively, even quoting the Bible. Exceptional.
Someone coming onto this forum may be doing so looking for some answers. They are the ones who may respond to the Gospel. Someone looking for answers to the question ''Is there anything more to life?'' is more likely to respond to the gospel than someone who is not looking and couldn't care less.
Additionally, these threads end up on Google, and someone curious about the Gospel and googling 'The Gospel' or something simliar could be directed here. Those who are interested in their eternal future will be directed by God to the Gospel, God will get the Gospel to them by one means or another.
Us unbelievers have heard it already and choose not to believe. People who are searching for answers have not made the decision on whether to accept or reject christianity. Therefore, are "searchers", not unbelievers.
I'm well aware that as per christians my eternal future will not be Heaven, nor am I concerned, but it wasn't your "god" that told me this as nobody or nothing directed me to the gospel outside of my own curiosity.
Us unbelievers have heard it already and choose not to believe. People who are searching for answers have not made the decision on whether to accept or reject christianity. Therefore, are "searchers", not unbelievers.
I'm well aware that as per christians my eternal future will not be Heaven, nor am I concerned, but it wasn't your "god" that told me this as nobody or nothing directed me to the gospel outside of my own curiosity.
Until a person makes the decision to believe in Christ, he is an unbeliever. The fact that he is searching notwithstanding. You speak for yourself. You don't speak for anyone else. Many who are unbelievers now will be believers later. Many will not. God will get the Gospel to those who are interested, and many who are not interested will also come into contact with it. And so the volitional issue comes into play. Believe the Gospel or reject it. God gives everyone the opportunity to make the choice.
Us unbelievers have heard it already and choose not to believe. People who are searching for answers have not made the decision on whether to accept or reject christianity. Therefore, are "searchers", not unbelievers.
We were all unbelievers my friend
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but it may be looking for something to debate with you about as we probably don't believe what you're trying to tell us anyway 
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