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Old 10-01-2010, 01:20 AM
 
18,146 posts, read 13,871,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
How do you reconcile salvation purely by faith and this passage?

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

HOW much must we help the poor etc in order to enter heaven? It seems Jesus is saying we should help them (or else!), but not how much. But then, isn't this salvation by works? Is it more to do with the attitude of the heart? Like if you earnestly try to be good to others and not turn your back on them, but perhaps not make a big impact, that's what matters most?

This passage used to disturb me. I mean, what if I simply did not give enough of my time/money to the poor? What if merely donating a bit here and there isn't up to Christ's standards?

Some say if you are saved this will be manifest as the 'fruits' of the spirit...but yes, but what of those, through circumstances (say those who are incapacitated to do so), who simply cannot fulfil all of these requirements? (in this modern day not everyone is actually involved in helping the poor). It would be a terrible onus if someone (like some Catholics and others who believe in salvation through works) believed they had to work their way into heaven and to avoid hell.
Moderator cut: deleted as being "off topic"
Works are never the means of eternal salvation. Passages such as Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9; and Romans 11:6 make that clear.

Last edited by june 7th; 10-03-2010 at 08:15 PM..
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Old 10-01-2010, 02:50 PM
 
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James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
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Old 10-01-2010, 11:34 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,414 posts, read 9,036,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
How do you reconcile salvation purely by faith and this passage?

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

HOW much must we help the poor etc in order to enter heaven? It seems Jesus is saying we should help them (or else!), but not how much. But then, isn't this salvation by works? Is it more to do with the attitude of the heart? Like if you earnestly try to be good to others and not turn your back on them, but perhaps not make a big impact, that's what matters most?

This passage used to disturb me. I mean, what if I simply did not give enough of my time/money to the poor? What if merely donating a bit here and there isn't up to Christ's standards?

Some say if you are saved this will be manifest as the 'fruits' of the spirit...but yes, but what of those, through circumstances (say those who are incapacitated to do so), who simply cannot fulfil all of these requirements? (in this modern day not everyone is actually involved in helping the poor). It would be a terrible onus if someone (like some Catholics and others who believe in salvation through works) believed they had to work their way into heaven and to avoid hell.
The first thing to notice is that before anything is said by anybody is that people are seperated immediately ( left of Jesus and right of Jesus).

Next Jesus says to the righteous .. "Come, those who are blessed"

1. When Jesus says "Come", that is to signify that nobody enters heaven without being invited Matthew 22:1-14 The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

2. When Jesus says "those who are blessed" ...
"those who are" ... not "all is".
"blessed" ... [past tense] .
The significance of it in the past tense is that when Jesus comes, nothing from that point forward can affect what side of Jesus you'll be on. This also validates Jesus' word when he says that who ever believes has eternal life from the moment one believes.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

3. Neither group (left or right) is aware of "doing" anything for Jesus. What should be obvious is that those on right who believed in Jesus are given credit based on something they didn't do. While those on the left who didn't believe were held accountable for something they didn't do.

Why? Because without faith it is impossible to please God
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:09 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,412,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned
The blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us. But just because works aren't the means of salvation, doesn't mean it's not necessary. I can give many verses showing you need "works".

Last edited by june 7th; 10-03-2010 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 10-03-2010, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
The blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us. But just because works aren't the means of salvation, doesn't mean it's not necessary. I can give many verses showing you need "works".
The spiritual life after salvation is a different issue than salvation. But works do not produce spiritual growth after salvation. Rather, spiritual growth after salvation will result in works which are acceptable to God. At the judgment seat of Christ following the rapture of the Church, the believers works will be evaluated for the purpose of rewards (1 Cor 3:12-15; 2 Cor 5:10; Romans 14:10-12). Actually, anything the believer does while filled with the Holy Spirit by means of the principle of 1 John 1:9 is acceptable as divine good - works which are found to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones'.
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Old 10-03-2010, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
19,468 posts, read 18,680,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
When Jesus returns and puts an end to the tribulation, he will separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares. The sheep (believers) will go on His right, while the goats (unbelievers) will go on His left. The unbelievers will be cast into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41, while the believers will go into the Millennial kingdom. They go into the Millennial kingdom not because of their works, but because they are believers.
That certainly isn't what the passage being discussed says. It is those who actually do what the Savior told us to do who will be the sheep. It's those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and cared for the sick. Matthew 25 says absolutely NOTHING about the sheep being those who professed belief and left it at that.
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Old 10-03-2010, 05:08 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,470,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsr3 View Post
Hi, an atheist here, but Matthew 25 does explain it all. Ones faith leads to good works,or good works to faith, the two are inseparable. One of the things that turns us off to "Christians" is the refusal to understand the gospels.
Bill
Amen
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
That certainly isn't what the passage being discussed says. It is those who actually do what the Savior told us to do who will be the sheep. It's those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and cared for the sick. Matthew 25 says absolutely NOTHING about the sheep being those who professed belief and left it at that.
To the contrary. It concerns the tribulational survivors both believer and unbeliever. Salvation has always been through faith alone in Christ alone, and it will be no different during the tribulation. When Christ returns, He will separate the sheep (believers) from the goats (unbelievers). And the unbelievers will be cast into the eternal fire (Matt 25:41,46). During the intense judgments that are upon the earth during the tribulation, it will be believers who display kindness toward others. As far as unbelievers go, it will be everyone for themselves.

Now, certainly, the tribulational believers are being praised for their works in Matthew 25, but Works are NEVER the basis for salvation. In fact, the unbeliever is condemned to the lake of fire on the basis of his human righteousness from which his good works originate (Revelation 20:11-15).

Romans 4:5 'But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit 6] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ , and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

During the tribulation, people will be saved through the gospel message, which will be given by the 144,000 Jewish evangelists ( Rev 7:4), at least one angel flying though the air with the gospel message (Rev 14:6), the two witnesses of Rev 11, just by picking up a Bible and reading it.

And it is these who will manifest good deeds during the tribulation, and those who are not martyred will go into the Millennial kingdom, not because of their deeds, but because they believed in Christ.

Maybe the following site will say it in a way which makes more sense to you...

Matthew 25:31-46 -- Works Salvation? (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html - broken link)
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Works are required for salvation. Not our works but the Works of Christ done thru us. If we have not His works being done by us then we do not have Christ.
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:39 PM
 
18,146 posts, read 13,871,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Works are required for salvation. Not our works but the Works of Christ done thru us. If we have not His works being done by us then we do not have Christ.
No. The work of Jesus Christ for salvation was done on the cross. A person is eternally saved through a simple decision to place his faith in Christ for salvation. After salvation, spiritual growth will result in good works. Those works are done under the filling of the Holy Spirit. But they have nothing to do with salvation. Salvation takes place in a moment of time. Spiritual growth is on going through life on this earth.
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