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Old 10-03-2010, 05:45 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,821 posts, read 9,593,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
That certainly isn't what the passage being discussed says. It is those who actually do what the Savior told us to do who will be the sheep. It's those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and cared for the sick. Matthew 25 says absolutely NOTHING about the sheep being those who professed belief and left it at that.
Moderator cut: deleted

Matthew 25:37
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? "

Matthew 25 says NOTHING about the righteous realizing that they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and cared for the sick.


compare that to the unbeliever, the works righteous and by observing the law

Matthew 25:44
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

Matthew 25 says NOTHING about the unbeliever realizing that they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and cared for the sick.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

John 6:28
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"


Did Jesus say believe AND fed the hungry? ...... NO
Did Jesus say believe AND clothed the naked ... NO
Did Jesus say believe AND cared for the sick ... NO


Jesus said: "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

How many times does Jesus need to reveal it ..... to believe in the one he has sent!

Last edited by june 7th; 10-03-2010 at 07:20 PM..
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
20,463 posts, read 20,123,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
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Quote:
Matthew 25 says NOTHING about the righteous realizing that they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and cared for the sick.
So, who said it does? Obviously, the righteous knew what they'd done. What they didn't realize was that in Christ's eyes, they'd performed those acts of kindness towards Him. There is not one single solitary word about belief or faith. The entire focus is on the compassionate behavior of people who cared for their fellow human beings as opposed to those who didn't.

Quote:
Did Jesus say believe AND fed the hungry? ...... NO
Did Jesus say believe AND clothed the naked ... NO
Did Jesus say believe AND cared for the sick ... NO
Not in John 6:28, but very definitely in Matthew 25:31-46. In verse 41, He specifically states what the fate of those who did not feed the hungry, clothe the naked and care for the sick will be: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

He concludes by saying, "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Here's what He didn't say, "And the unbeliever shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the believer into life eternal."

Are you flat out blind, twin.spin? Or is it just that you can't comprehend plain English words?

Last edited by june 7th; 10-03-2010 at 07:21 PM..
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:33 PM
 
19,704 posts, read 15,083,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned

Matthew 25:37
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? "

Matthew 25 says NOTHING about the righteous realizing that they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and cared for the sick.



compare that to the unbeliever, the works righteous and by observing the law

Matthew 25:44
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

Matthew 25 says NOTHING about the unbeliever realizing that they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and cared for the sick.



John 6:28
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"


Did Jesus say believe AND fed the hungry? ...... NO
Did Jesus say believe AND clothed the naked ... NO
Did Jesus say believe AND cared for the sick ... NO


Jesus said: "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

How many times does Jesus need to reveal it ..... to believe in the one he has sent!
Good post twin. Salvation is always through simple faith in Christ. Spiritual production comes afterwords.

Last edited by june 7th; 10-03-2010 at 07:22 PM..
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Old 10-03-2010, 07:01 PM
 
36,285 posts, read 24,373,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
John 6:28
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"


Did Jesus say believe AND fed the hungry? ...... NO
Did Jesus say believe AND clothed the naked ... NO
Did Jesus say believe AND cared for the sick ... NO


Jesus said: "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

How many times does Jesus need to reveal it ..... to believe in the one he has sent!
Wrong as usual. You continue to misunderstand the difference between "believe on" (pisteuō eis) and your superficial "believe in" intellectual acknowledgment. "Believe on" is true belief and it cannot be chosen . . . it can only exist or not by the inner processes of your heart as worked on by the Holy Spirit. It is manifest in your "fruits" . . . NOT your intellectual acknowledgments and proclamations of so-called belief. "Believe on" is a true inner conviction that cannot be chosen (or unchosen).
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Old 10-03-2010, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,518,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. The work of Jesus Christ for salvation was done on the cross. A person is eternally saved through a simple decision to place his faith in Christ for salvation. After salvation, spiritual growth will result in good works. Those works are done under the filling of the Holy Spirit. But they have nothing to do with salvation. Salvation takes place in a moment of time. Spiritual growth is on going through life on this earth.
Mike it if that was the case then Paul wouldn't have told us this:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Eternal Life and Immortality is Salvation and it is being rendered based on works.

What was "finished" was all the scripture fullfilment concerning the establishment of Jesus as the Christ.

Mike I classify preaching on this subject into two different categories. Those that preach we are saved BECAUSE of Jesus and those that preach that we are saved BY Jesus. The difference is that many will simply believe that Jesus is not needed to be personally emulated in order to be saved those are they which believed they are saved BECAUSE of Jesus. Then there are those that believe they must personally exhibit the same nature and works of Christ in order to be saved. Remember Paul tells us that the rendering of that salvation is BASED ACCORDING to works.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:31 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,821 posts, read 9,593,616 times
Reputation: 1299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Good post twin. Salvation is always through simple faith in Christ. Spiritual production comes afterwords.
Thanks Mike.
Salvation is through faith .... plain simple faith.
We get accused of not understanding plain simple english words .... yet if it was so simple as argued, why then the need for "other gospels"?

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus said: "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

The seperation of people occured before not after the righteous saying anything. The righteous are not let into heaven because of their efforts, they were clueless about it.

John 6:28-29 ...... As plain as Jesus could reveal it ... for those who are God's children
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:33 PM
 
19,704 posts, read 15,083,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike it if that was the case then Paul wouldn't have told us this:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Eternal Life and Immortality is Salvation and it is being rendered based on works.

What was "finished" was all the scripture fullfilment concerning the establishment of Jesus as the Christ.

Mike I classify preaching on this subject into two different categories. Those that preach we are saved BECAUSE of Jesus and those that preach that we are saved BY Jesus. The difference is that many will simply believe that Jesus is not needed to be personally emulated in order to be saved those are they which believed they are saved BECAUSE of Jesus. Then there are those that believe they must personally exhibit the same nature and works of Christ in order to be saved. Remember Paul tells us that the rendering of that salvation is BASED ACCORDING to works.

Paul did not teach salvation by works.

Romans 4:5 'But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit 6] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ , and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.


If by 'what is finished' you are referring to the cross, what was finished was the work of redemption and reconciliation, in which God the Father was satisfied with the work of Christ on the cross. None of that is appropriated unless a person believes in Christ for salvation.

Romans 2:7 is hypothetical. Paul is not contradicting what he has said elsewhere by here implying that salvation is by works. He is instead showing why all men are lost. As he shows later in Rom 3:19-20, no man has continued in well doing, no man has kept the Law, and all the world is guilty before God.

The major theme of the book of Romans is to show that the entire world is guilty before God and cannot be justified by the law, but is instead justified through faith in Jesus Christ.
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,474,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
How do you reconcile salvation purely by faith and this passage?

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

HOW much must we help the poor etc in order to enter heaven? It seems Jesus is saying we should help them (or else!), but not how much. But then, isn't this salvation by works? Is it more to do with the attitude of the heart? Like if you earnestly try to be good to others and not turn your back on them, but perhaps not make a big impact, that's what matters most?

This passage used to disturb me. I mean, what if I simply did not give enough of my time/money to the poor? What if merely donating a bit here and there isn't up to Christ's standards?

Some say if you are saved this will be manifest as the 'fruits' of the spirit...but yes, but what of those, through circumstances (say those who are incapacitated to do so), who simply cannot fulfil all of these requirements? (in this modern day not everyone is actually involved in helping the poor). It would be a terrible onus if someone (like some Catholics and others who believe in salvation through works) believed they had to work their way into heaven and to avoid hell.
Well, I must say that having compassion is "salvation" in and of itself, but you must have eyes to see and ears to hear to accept what I am saying.

Coming out of darkness (out of: selfishness/love of money/religious elitism ect ect) is "salvation".

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Old 10-04-2010, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,636,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Thanks Mike.
Salvation is through faith .... plain simple faith.
We get accused of not understanding plain simple english words .... yet if it was so simple as argued, why then the need for "other gospels"?

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus said: "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

The seperation of people occured before not after the righteous saying anything. The righteous are not let into heaven because of their efforts, they were clueless about it.

John 6:28-29 ...... As plain as Jesus could reveal it ... for those who are God's children
Amen!

Galatians 2:16 "So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,636,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Paul did not teach salvation by works.

Romans 4:5 'But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit 6] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ , and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.


If by 'what is finished' you are referring to the cross, what was finished was the work of redemption and reconciliation, in which God the Father was satisfied with the work of Christ on the cross. None of that is appropriated unless a person believes in Christ for salvation.

Romans 2:7 is hypothetical. Paul is not contradicting what he has said elsewhere by here implying that salvation is by works. He is instead showing why all men are lost. As he shows later in Rom 3:19-20, no man has continued in well doing, no man has kept the Law, and all the world is guilty before God.

The major theme of the book of Romans is to show that the entire world is guilty before God and cannot be justified by the law, but is instead justified through faith in Jesus Christ.
And another amen! I didn't see you already posted Galatians 2:16. Great verse and so straightforward.
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