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Old 10-04-2010, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
15,779 posts, read 7,865,165 times
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Why does it have to be one or the other? Why spend so much time trying to figure out if it is just faith or just works or both? Even if you believe it is just faith - does that mean that you shouldn't try to be a good person and try to do good things? It sounds like all the people who believe it is just faith are so determined to prove that they are "right" that it almost sounds like they look down on people who do good works! I can't imagine that God would want people to have faith and then do nothing good with their lives. So - what does it matter what "saves" you? You should always want to be a good person - not matter what. I know many of you think I'm doomed because I don't have faith - but being a good person is still very important to me. Helping others, showing compassion, trying to make the world a better place is still very important to me. I think it should be important to everyone - no matter what you believe. Belittling these things to show how faith is the only imperative in this life is doing a great injustice to God and everyone in existence - in my opinion. If you believe that faith is the only way to be saved - that's fine - but don't underestimate the importance of good works. Why must you put others down because they want to do good things with their lives? Doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,734 posts, read 9,173,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
And another amen! I didn't see you already posted Galatians 2:16. Great verse and so straightforward.
All of the verses you guys are posting are great. But what about the ones you're flat out ignoring? Like Matthew 25:31-46? I mean how can you just pretend it's not there?
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Old 10-04-2010, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Clewiston, Florida
69 posts, read 82,665 times
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I am wondering why nobody has mentioned the following verse:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24 (NRSV)

I'm along the Catholic lines of Christianity. I believe faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. IIRC, This was a big disagreement with the Catholic and Lutheran Church. Luther believed you were saved by faith alone, while Catholics believe you are saved by faith and works!

-Pat Healey
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:05 PM
 
9,321 posts, read 4,690,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Healey View Post
I am wondering why nobody has mentioned the following verse:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24 (NRSV)

I'm along the Catholic lines of Christianity. I believe faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. IIRC, This was a big disagreement with the Catholic and Lutheran Church. Luther believed you were saved by faith alone, while Catholics believe you are saved by faith and works!

-Pat Healey
Pat,
James was written for those who wanted to be lip service Christians. As Jesus quoted: " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.' "

What goes by the wayside is that the Bible is written for all. The Bible is a balance between law and gospel --- by faith alone and a faith that shines.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

For the works righteous person ..it's by faith alone.
For the lip service person ... it's by faith that shines.
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
305 posts, read 336,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Healey View Post
I am wondering why nobody has mentioned the following verse:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24 (NRSV)

I'm along the Catholic lines of Christianity. I believe faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. IIRC, This was a big disagreement with the Catholic and Lutheran Church. Luther believed you were saved by faith alone, while Catholics believe you are saved by faith and works!

-Pat Healey
Luther and the Lutheran reformers did not throw out the need to perform good works. Article XX of the Augsburg Confession discussed this:

Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

The big problem with saying that good works in addition to faith are needed to be justified is that there is always the looming question, "did I do enough?" Good works are required, but not because we need them to be saved, but because it's the will of God.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:24 PM
 
12,455 posts, read 6,176,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
All of the verses you guys are posting are great. But what about the ones you're flat out ignoring? Like Matthew 25:31-46? I mean how can you just pretend it's not there?
No one is ignoring Matthew 25:31-46. I have explained to you what it means and have provided you with another resource with may explain it better then I did.

The word of God does not contradict itself. It states a number of times that salvation cannot be attained by works, but only through faith in Christ. And that faith must be placed in Christ before one dies. There are no second chances after death.

The tribulational believers who survive to the end of the tribulation will be praised by Jesus for their works, and they will be rewarded, in a similar manner as church-age believers will have been rewarded (for those who are) at the judgment seat of Christ which immediately follows the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation, but they are not saved by them. The tribulational unbelievers will be cast off the earth into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41 because they did not believe in Christ. But the basis for their condemnation will not be their sins, because their sins were paid for by Christ. The basis of their condemnation will be their works. Just as 1000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, final sentencing of all unbelievers to the eternal lake of fire will be on the basis of their works - their human righteousness. Having rejected Christ as Savior and therefore never having been imputed with God's very own righteousness, they must stand on their own righteousness and they lose. Forever.

Consider Mathew 7:21-23 which clearly shows that works will not save anyone. ''Not everyone who says to Me. ''Lord, Lord,'' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven (the will of the Father is that one believe in Christ for salvation. John 6:28-29). 'Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in Your name (works), and in Your name cast out demons (works), and in Your name perform many miracles (works)?'' ''And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Notice that Jesus just called LAWLESS those who had done things in His name. But because they had never personally received Jesus as their Savior, Jesus said He had never known them, and ordered them to depart from Him. And the place to which they depart is stated in Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46] ''And these will go away into eternal punishment...''

The believers works which are acceptable to God will be rewarded. But the unbelievers works can only condemn him to eternity in the lake of fire, because human righteousness can never satisfy the absolute righteousness of God (Revelation 20:11-15).
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:46 PM
 
12,455 posts, read 6,176,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
And another amen! I didn't see you already posted Galatians 2:16. Great verse and so straightforward.
Thank you CW2L. And God bless you. Yes, very straightforward. They all are actually. It's a pity that so many will never believe what they say.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-04-2010 at 06:05 PM..
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:28 PM
 
5,470 posts, read 2,664,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Paul did not teach salvation by works.
Sure he did. I already quoted a verse showing so.

Quote:

Romans 4:5 'But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
Roman 4:5 has to be setup first. Look at verse 1:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

That bolded piece is SO IMPORTANT to understand because it puts the works specified in verse 5 in context. So that shows that the works spoken of in verse 5 are those pertaining to the flesh. Obviously those are not the works of Christ Jesus.

Quote:
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit 6] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ , and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Again, this is speaking of the works of the flesh and NOT those of Christ Jesus.


Quote:
If by 'what is finished' you are referring to the cross, what was finished was the work of redemption and reconciliation, in which God the Father was satisfied with the work of Christ on the cross. None of that is appropriated unless a person believes in Christ for salvation.
That is not what the verse says. Again, let's look at it in context:

Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

So there we have Jesus taking the vinegar to complete/Finish the fullfillment of scriptures pertaining to Him.


Quote:
Romans 2:7 is hypothetical. Paul is not contradicting what he has said elsewhere by here implying that salvation is by works. He is instead showing why all men are lost. As he shows later in Rom 3:19-20, no man has continued in well doing, no man has kept the Law, and all the world is guilty before God.
Romans 2:7 is not hypothetical. It is a fact that is coming to pass.

Quote:
The major theme of the book of Romans is to show that the entire world is guilty before God and cannot be justified by the law, but is instead justified through faith in Jesus Christ.
I agree that entire world is guilty before God and cannot be justified by the letter of the Law. But Faith in Jesus Christ is not void of works. Faith in Jesus Christ is works.

Faithout works is DEAD:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So if Faithout works is dead then that means that Faith without works cannot save you. Otherwise, how could dead Faith save?
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Clewiston, Florida
69 posts, read 82,665 times
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Quote:
Pat,
James was written for those who wanted to be lip service Christians. As Jesus quoted: " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.' "

What goes by the wayside is that the Bible is written for all. The Bible is a balance between law and gospel --- by faith alone and a faith that shines.
Thanks for stating your opinion. I do not share your views.

-Pat Healey
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:38 PM
 
12,455 posts, read 6,176,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Do you understand what this means to me and to other Mormons? Maybe I can explain it to you. Consider the words of one of the verses of the well-known Christian hymn, "Rock of Ages":

Not the labors of my hands can fill all thy law's demands;
Could my zeal no respite know, could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone; Thou must save, and thou alone.

These words basically say what we believe. To paraphrase it, there is nothing I can do to meet the demands of your law. I can't possibly be zealous enough or sorrowful enough to save myself. You (Christ) are the only one who can save me and atone for my sins.

"After all we can do" means "apart from all we can do." We can certain try to keep our Heavenly Father's commandments, and I'm not going to argue with you whether He wants us to do so or not. I believe He does. Unless I have misinterpreted so many of your posts, you seem to believe He does not care. Regardless of our disagreement as to whether God cares if we're obedient or not, I do not believe and Mormons do not believe that we can save ourselves. If it were left up to us, we could not conceivably be forgiven for our sins. Jesus Christ was willing to take those sins upon Himself and endure the punishment for them in our place. He did not need to do so. He lovingly and willingly did so. That's grace.

We are saved by grace alone. Having been saved by grace, we will be judged for our works and will be rewarded for them.

I would sincerely appreciate your recognizing what I really believe and at least making an attempt to understand my belief instead of just picking it apart.
'After' does not mean 'apart from.'

If you've read 'so many of my other post's', then you know that I have never said that God doesn't care if believers are obedient or not. God disciplines believers who are disobedient.

There used to be another Mormon who posted for a while on this forum, who tried hard to deny and explain away the passages which say that you can't work for salvation. Two passages I remember him trying to redefine were Titus 3:5 and Isaiah 64:6.

Your salvation depends upon whether you understand that salvation is only through faith alone in Christ alone. And I mean the real Jesus Christ. Not a false Jesus who is a spirit brother of Satan. Not a false Jesus who started out as a man and rose to some sort of godhood through holy living.

The real Jesus is eternal and infinite God who created all that has been created, and who, since the incarnation, is also true humanity, making Him the unique Person of the universe. In His deity He is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

What Mormonism teaches is readily available on the internet. Mormons of course call any one who reveals what Mormon's believe as being prejudiced against them. But the reality is that Mormonism is no more Christian than Universalism.

Mormon's need to determine if their eternal salvation is more important to them than following a man-made religion which really has its origins with Satan, as does all religion.

But this thread is not really about Mormonism and so I will leave it at that.
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