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Old 10-05-2010, 04:11 AM
 
18,153 posts, read 13,871,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Sure he did. I already quoted a verse showing so.
No he did not teach salvation by works. Romans 2:6-7 does not teach salvation by works.

There is but one thing which Christ called a work in John 6:29. And that is to believe in Him for salvation. Anything added to faith for the purpose of attaining salvation is legalism and results in no salvation.

You said the following in post #19.

''Works are required for salvation. Not our works but the Works of Christ done thru us. If we have not His works being done by us then we do not have Christ.''

The work of Jesus Christ was done not through us, but was done for us, on the Cross. We cannot do the works of Christ. What the believer CAN do however, is to do works under the filling of the Holy Spirit which will be rewardable at the judgment seat of Christ which will take place after the rapture of the church. But that has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Quote:
Roman 4:5 has to be setup first. Look at verse 1:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

That bolded piece is SO IMPORTANT to understand because it puts the works specified in verse 5 in context. So that shows that the works spoken of in verse 5 are those pertaining to the flesh. Obviously those are not the works of Christ Jesus.
See reply at bottom of post.

Quote:
That is not what the verse says. Again, let's look at it in context:

Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

So there we have Jesus taking the vinegar to complete/Finish the fullfillment of scriptures pertaining to Him.
To the contrary. When Jesus said, 'It is finished,' what He actually said was tetelestai. Tetelestai was a Greek financial term which had to to with a debt being canceled or discharged.

This is what Col 2:14 is referring to where it says, 'having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross'.

When Christ said it is finished, He meant that everything required to make salvation available to man had been accomplished on the Cross. He meant that every single sin in the history of the human race past, present, and future, had been judged on the Cross. Jesus Christ's work on the Cross involved that which pertains to the doctrines of redemption, reconciliation, expiation and unlimited atonement, and propitiation. It involved justification and positional truth. And it is through faith in Christ and ONLY through faith in Christ, that these things are applied to the one who believes in Christ for salvation.

When the work of Christ on the Cross paying the penalty for our sins was completed, He dismissed His Spirit and brought His physical life to an end so that the next thing to be done could commence. He had to be resurrected. This required that He first die.


Quote:
Romans 2:7 is not hypothetical. It is a fact that is coming to pass.
Yes, it is hypothetical. In Romans, Paul starts out by stating that the entire world is guilty before God and unable to meet the demands of God's perfect righteousness. He is showing that all men all lost and in need of a Savior. Romans 2:7 refers to those who would work for salvation. The entire point is that man can only be justified through faith in Jesus which is the focus of chapters 3 through 8.

Quote:
I agree that entire world is guilty before God and cannot be justified by the letter of the Law. But Faith in Jesus Christ is not void of works. Faith in Jesus Christ is works.

Faithout works is DEAD:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So if Faithout works is dead then that means that Faith without works cannot save you. Otherwise, how could dead Faith save?
You cannot add anything to simple faith in Christ and call it a work of God. Salvation is through faith in Christ only. Salvation does not result from faith in Christ plus ANYTHING. Salvation results from faith in Christ plus NOTHING. The merit is not in the faith, but is in the object of the faith which is Jesus Christ.

You cannot for instance, add water baptism as a requirement for salvation and call it a work of God.


When James 2:14-25 talks about faith without works being dead, it means simply that faith in Christ should result in spiritual growth after salvation with its accompanying good works. As a result of having been saved, the believer should advance to spiritual maturity and produce good works which are acceptable to God.

James does not contradict Paul. They are talking about two different things. This has to be understood in order not to misapply what James is teaching. Paul is talking about the justification of the believer before God, in contrast to James who is talking about the justification of the believers faith before people. Paul addresses the subject of justification before God while James is talking about justification before people. James is asking, ''How can people know that a person's faith is authentic?''

Before God, a person is justified by faith alone. God sees into the heart. But before people, a person is justifed by the kind of life he lives, as people cannot see into the heart of a person. They can only tell by his witness of works that his faith is real.

In James 2:21 James writes, ''Was not abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the alter? And the answer of course is yes he was. But go to Genesis 15:6 which was many years before Abraham even had a son. In fact, it was at this time, that God made the promise to Abram that he would have a son. And it was at this time that Abram believed in the Lord and was saved. Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD ; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

James in James 2:21 was referring to Genesis chapter 22, while Paul in Romans 4:3 was referring to Genesis 15:6.

Abraham was eternally saved the very moment he placed his faith in the Lord. Many years later, when Abraham had matured spiritually, God gave him a test involving Isaac which he passed, gaining the stamp of God's approval.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Texas
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YIKES!!! Religion has done it again. People trying to figure out what to do to make themselves worthy of "salvation".

SOZO = Healing/freedom/wholeness.

The love of Jesus brings that to us. You'll know when it's manifesting itself through you and you won't have to ask these kinds of questions.

I understand why, not trying to be harsh - but what being discussed here ain't it.

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Old 10-05-2010, 07:58 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,329,580 times
Reputation: 987
Matthew 25:31-46 is not about being saved for eternal life nor being eternally damned.

What God would eternally torture anyone because they didn't give some water to slake the thirst of one of Christ's brethren? If that truly is your God then He is not worthy of our love but is worthy of our greatest contempt.

The passage is about NATIONS and what those NATIONS did or failed to do to and for Christ's brethren during their great tribulation.

Just as Israel went into Egypt and was held there for 400+ years and it was a **fiery** trial for them, now it is those NATIONS turn to go into the same kind of fiery trial for that age (millennial age) due to what they did to Christ's brethren.

Come on people, God is not that sadistic to torture human beings in literal fire for eternity because they failed to give a cup of water to one of Christ's brethren. THINK!

Many bibles translate Matthew 25:46 as "age-during punishment" and "age-during life."
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Old 10-05-2010, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,259,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No he did not teach salvation by works. Romans 2:6-7 does not teach salvation by works.
All the Apostles and Jesus Himself taught Salvation by works.

Quote:
There is but one thing which Christ called a work in John 6:29. And that is to believe in Him for salvation. Anything added to faith for the purpose of attaining salvation is legalism and results in no salvation.
Now there is no doubt that God is all about the Law. We had not know anyting about LAW had not God created it. Paul says the Law was ordained unto Life.

Quote:

You said the following in post #19.

''Works are required for salvation. Not our works but the Works of Christ done thru us. If we have not His works being done by us then we do not have Christ.''

The work of Jesus Christ was done not through us, but was done for us, on the Cross. We cannot do the works of Christ. What the believer CAN do however, is to do works under the filling of the Holy Spirit which will be rewardable at the judgment seat of Christ which will take place after the rapture of the church. But that has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
If I have Christ, then Christ is in me and the works of Christ I shall do. Now you are on record as saying His works, your not able to do.

Quote:
See reply at bottom of post.



To the contrary. When Jesus said, 'It is finished,' what He actually said was tetelestai. Tetelestai was a Greek financial term which had to to with a debt being canceled or discharged.

This is what Col 2:14 is referring to where it says, 'having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross'.
There is no doubt that sin is debt. But if we pay the penalty for debt then the sin can be no longer.

Quote:
When Christ said it is finished, He meant that everything required to make salvation available to man had been accomplished on the Cross. He meant that every single sin in the history of the human race past, present, and future, had been judged on the Cross. Jesus Christ's work on the Cross involved that which pertains to the doctrines of redemption, reconciliation, expiation and unlimited atonement, and propitiation. It involved justification and positional truth. And it is through faith in Christ and ONLY through faith in Christ, that these things are applied to the one who believes in Christ for salvation.

When the work of Christ on the Cross paying the penalty for our sins was completed, He dismissed His Spirit and brought His physical life to an end so that the next thing to be done could commence. He had to be resurrected. This required that He first die.
Only the fullfilment of the scriptures pertaining to the prophecies were fulfilled at the cross. Jesus must convert each of us personally. Mike we are saved BY Jesus and not BECAUSE of Jesus. The difference is that I preach that if you have Christ you are Christ-like. You have put on the mind of Christ and walk in His Spirit doing the things that Christ does. What your preaching is that we can walk in the spirit of a man and acknowledge that Christ is who He said He was and not be able to do what He did and still be saved.

Quote:
Yes, it is hypothetical. In Romans, Paul starts out by stating that the entire world is guilty before God and unable to meet the demands of God's perfect righteousness. He is showing that all men all lost and in need of a Savior. Romans 2:7 refers to those who would work for salvation. The entire point is that man can only be justified through faith in Jesus which is the focus of chapters 3 through 8.
Not hypothetical at all. When we are told that our works we be the basis for the rendering of Salvation, that is not Hypothetical. It is a fact, that many are simply in denial of because they have not be given the Spirit of discernment.

Quote:
You cannot add anything to simple faith in Christ and call it a work of God. Salvation is through faith in Christ only. Salvation does not result from faith in Christ plus ANYTHING. Salvation results from faith in Christ plus NOTHING. The merit is not in the faith, but is in the object of the faith which is Jesus Christ.

You cannot for instance, add water baptism as a requirement for salvation and call it a work of God.


When James 2:14-25 talks about faith without works being dead, it means simply that faith in Christ should result in spiritual growth after salvation with its accompanying good works. As a result of having been saved, the believer should advance to spiritual maturity and produce good works which are acceptable to God.

James does not contradict Paul. They are talking about two different things. This has to be understood in order not to misapply what James is teaching. Paul is talking about the justification of the believer before God, in contrast to James who is talking about the justification of the believers faith before people. Paul addresses the subject of justification before God while James is talking about justification before people. James is asking, ''How can people know that a person's faith is authentic?''

Before God, a person is justified by faith alone. God sees into the heart. But before people, a person is justifed by the kind of life he lives, as people cannot see into the heart of a person. They can only tell by his witness of works that his faith is real.

In James 2:21 James writes, ''Was not abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the alter? And the answer of course is yes he was. But go to Genesis 15:6 which was many years before Abraham even had a son. In fact, it was at this time, that God made the promise to Abram that he would have a son. And it was at this time that Abram believed in the Lord and was saved. Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD ; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

James in James 2:21 was referring to Genesis chapter 22, while Paul in Romans 4:3 was referring to Genesis 15:6.

Abraham was eternally saved the very moment he placed his faith in the Lord. Many years later, when Abraham had matured spiritually, God gave him a test involving Isaac which he passed, gaining the stamp of God's approval.
Of course James doesn't contradict Paul. As I have shown he obviously is in complete agreement with Paul. They both taught that dead faith cannot save you. They both taught that Faith void of Works cannot save you. They both taught that our works were different then the works that save you. They both taught that saving works are ONLY those works that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ promoted.

Given your response Mike, it may surprise you that even in Hebrews we learn that we are to provoke other unto Good Works:

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Mike, if you still believe that Faith is OF yourself, then let me ask you - if we don't have Faith of ourselves, then answer this, how is it that God has FAILED to persuade those of us that you perceive as not believing?
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:18 PM
 
18,153 posts, read 13,871,686 times
Reputation: 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
All the Apostles and Jesus Himself taught Salvation by works.
No they did not. Believers should be motivated to have works as a result of being saved, but works to not result in salvation. The only thing that results in salvation is faith in Christ. If you are implying that, for example, you have to be baptized, and then are calling that a work of God, you are wrong. Salvation is strictly through one act of faith in Christ. Eternal salvation is a one time event. It is not a process. Experiential sanctification requires spiritual growth after salvation. Salvation itself results in Positional sanctification.


Quote:
Now there is no doubt that God is all about the Law. We had not know anyting about LAW had not God created it. Paul says the Law was ordained unto Life.
The purpose of the law was to show that man can't keep the law and needs a Savior.


Quote:
If I have Christ, then Christ is in me and the works of Christ I shall do. Now you are on record as saying His works, your not able to do.
And again, in post #19, you said the following.

''Works are required for salvation. Not our works but the Works of Christ done thru us. If we have not His works being done by us then we do not have Christ.''

What I am on record as saying in post #41 is this.

''The work of Jesus Christ was done not through us, but was done for us, on the Cross. We cannot do the works of Christ. What the believer CAN do however, is to do works under the filling of the Holy Spirit which will be rewardable at the judgment seat of Christ which will take place after the rapture of the church. But that has nothing to do with eternal salvation.''

A person can do nothing other than believe in Christ for salvation. The believer, having been saved, can under the filling of the Holy Spirit do works which are acceptable to God and which will be rewarded at the Bema seat judgment. Again, the works that a believer does do not in any way contribute to his eternal salvation.




Quote:
Only the fullfilment of the scriptures pertaining to the prophecies were fulfilled at the cross. Jesus must convert each of us personally. Mike we are saved BY Jesus and not BECAUSE of Jesus. The difference is that I preach that if you have Christ you are Christ-like. You have put on the mind of Christ and walk in His Spirit doing the things that Christ does. What your preaching is that we can walk in the spirit of a man and acknowledge that Christ is who He said He was and not be able to do what He did and still be saved.
I suggest you read and reread what I said. I have copied it again below.

To the contrary. When Jesus said, 'It is finished,' what He actually said was tetelestai. Tetelestai was a Greek financial term which had to to with a debt being canceled or discharged.

This is what Col 2:14 is referring to where it says, 'having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross'.

When Christ said it is finished, He meant that everything required to make salvation available to man had been accomplished on the Cross. He meant that every single sin in the history of the human race past, present, and future, had been judged on the Cross. Jesus Christ's work on the Cross involved that which pertains to the doctrines of redemption, reconciliation, expiation and unlimited atonement, and propitiation. It involved justification and positional truth. And it is through faith in Christ and ONLY through faith in Christ, that these things are applied to the one who believes in Christ for salvation.

When the work of Christ on the Cross paying the penalty for our sins was completed, He dismissed His Spirit and brought His physical life to an end so that the next thing to be done could commence. He had to be resurrected. This required that He first die.


EVERYTHING THAT WAS NECCESSARY TO MAKE SALVATION AVAILABLE TO MAN WAS ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS. IN ORDER TO APPROPRIATE WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS, MAN MUST PLACE HIS FAITH IN CHRIST.


Quote:
Not hypothetical at all. When we are told that our works we be the basis for the rendering of Salvation, that is not Hypothetical. It is a fact, that many are simply in denial of because they have not be given the Spirit of discernment.
You are not comprehending what the book of Romans is about at all. Paul is presenting the fact that salvation is through faith. Not by works.


Quote:
Of course James doesn't contradict Paul. As I have shown he obviously is in complete agreement with Paul. They both taught that dead faith cannot save you. They both taught that Faith void of Works cannot save you. They both taught that our works were different then the works that save you. They both taught that saving works are ONLY those works that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ promoted.
And again, you just don't get it. Go back and reread what I wrote.

Neither Paul or James said that faith without works prevented you from having eternal life.

Here again, and for the last time, is what I said. Try to understand what James is saying.

When James 2:14-25 talks about faith without works being dead, it means simply that faith in Christ should result in spiritual growth after salvation with its accompanying good works. As a result of having been saved, the believer should advance to spiritual maturity and produce good works which are acceptable to God.

James does not contradict Paul. They are talking about two different things. This has to be understood in order not to misapply what James is teaching. Paul is talking about the justification of the believer before God, in contrast to James who is talking about the justification of the believers faith before people. Paul addresses the subject of justification before God while James is talking about justification before people. James is asking, ''How can people know that a person's faith is authentic?''

Before God, a person is justified by faith alone. God sees into the heart. But before people, a person is justifed by the kind of life he lives, as people cannot see into the heart of a person. They can only tell by his witness of works that his faith is real.

In James 2:21 James writes, ''Was not abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the alter? And the answer of course is yes he was. But go to Genesis 15:6 which was many years before Abraham even had a son. In fact, it was at this time, that God made the promise to Abram that he would have a son. And it was at this time that Abram believed in the Lord and was saved. Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD ; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

James in James 2:21 was referring to Genesis chapter 22, while Paul in Romans 4:3 was referring to Genesis 15:6.

Abraham was eternally saved the very moment he placed his faith in the Lord. Many years later, when Abraham had matured spiritually, God gave him a test involving Isaac which he passed, gaining the stamp of God's approval.



Quote:
Given your response Mike, it may surprise you that even in Hebrews we learn that we are to provoke other unto Good Works:

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Yes, but it has nothing to do with eternal salvation. It has to do with life after having been saved. Faith in Christ results in positional Sanctification, while spiritual growth after salvation results in exeriential sanctification.

Quote:
Mike, if you still believe that Faith is OF yourself, then let me ask you - if we don't have Faith of ourselves, then answer this, how is it that God has FAILED to persuade those of us that you perceive as not believing?
It is called volition. Free will. God provides the Gospel information and man must make a volitional decision as to whether he believes it or not. God has no wish to coerce man's volition in salvation. The entire issue concerning why man is on this earth is to use his God given volition to decide for or against Jesus Christ. And he is held responsible for how he decides.

I don't think you are going to understand anything that I've said, or even want to try. Therefore, believe what you want. I am not responsible for what anyone believes. I can only present the facts.
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,259,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No they did not. Believers should be motivated to have works as a result of being saved, but works to not result in salvation. The only thing that results in salvation is faith in Christ. If you are implying that, for example, you have to be baptized, and then are calling that a work of God, you are wrong. Salvation is strictly through one act of faith in Christ. Eternal salvation is a one time event. It is not a process. Experiential sanctification requires spiritual growth after salvation. Salvation itself results in Positional sanctification.
I don't believe the Bible preaches that dead faith (faith without works) can save.

Quote:
The purpose of the law was to show that man can't keep the law and needs a Savior.
Yet, Paul said the law was ordained unto life:

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Quote:
And again, in post #19, you said the following.

''Works are required for salvation. Not our works but the Works of Christ done thru us. If we have not His works being done by us then we do not have Christ.''

What I am on record as saying in post #41 is this.

''The work of Jesus Christ was done not through us, but was done for us, on the Cross. We cannot do the works of Christ. What the believer CAN do however, is to do works under the filling of the Holy Spirit which will be rewardable at the judgment seat of Christ which will take place after the rapture of the church. But that has nothing to do with eternal salvation.''

A person can do nothing other than believe in Christ for salvation. The believer, having been saved, can under the filling of the Holy Spirit do works which are acceptable to God and which will be rewarded at the Bema seat judgment. Again, the works that a believer does do not in any way contribute to his eternal salvation.

It is clear that you have stated that we cannot do the works of Christ. But Christ Himself says otherwise if we have Him.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Obviously the Spirit of the Christ is to do His Fathers will which is the Law of God.

Quote:
I suggest you read and reread what I said. I have copied it again below.

To the contrary. When Jesus said, 'It is finished,' what He actually said was tetelestai. Tetelestai was a Greek financial term which had to to with a debt being canceled or discharged.

This is what Col 2:14 is referring to where it says, 'having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross'.

When Christ said it is finished, He meant that everything required to make salvation available to man had been accomplished on the Cross. He meant that every single sin in the history of the human race past, present, and future, had been judged on the Cross. Jesus Christ's work on the Cross involved that which pertains to the doctrines of redemption, reconciliation, expiation and unlimited atonement, and propitiation. It involved justification and positional truth. And it is through faith in Christ and ONLY through faith in Christ, that these things are applied to the one who believes in Christ for salvation.

When the work of Christ on the Cross paying the penalty for our sins was completed, He dismissed His Spirit and brought His physical life to an end so that the next thing to be done could commence. He had to be resurrected. This required that He first die.


EVERYTHING THAT WAS NECCESSARY TO MAKE SALVATION AVAILABLE TO MAN WAS ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS. IN ORDER TO APPROPRIATE WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS, MAN MUST PLACE HIS FAITH IN CHRIST.




You are not comprehending what the book of Romans is about at all. Paul is presenting the fact that salvation is through faith. Not by works.




And again, you just don't get it. Go back and reread what I wrote.

Neither Paul or James said that faith without works prevented you from having eternal life.

Here again, and for the last time, is what I said. Try to understand what James is saying.

When James 2:14-25 talks about faith without works being dead, it means simply that faith in Christ should result in spiritual growth after salvation with its accompanying good works. As a result of having been saved, the believer should advance to spiritual maturity and produce good works which are acceptable to God.

James does not contradict Paul. They are talking about two different things. This has to be understood in order not to misapply what James is teaching. Paul is talking about the justification of the believer before God, in contrast to James who is talking about the justification of the believers faith before people. Paul addresses the subject of justification before God while James is talking about justification before people. James is asking, ''How can people know that a person's faith is authentic?''

Before God, a person is justified by faith alone. God sees into the heart. But before people, a person is justifed by the kind of life he lives, as people cannot see into the heart of a person. They can only tell by his witness of works that his faith is real.

In James 2:21 James writes, ''Was not abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the alter? And the answer of course is yes he was. But go to Genesis 15:6 which was many years before Abraham even had a son. In fact, it was at this time, that God made the promise to Abram that he would have a son. And it was at this time that Abram believed in the Lord and was saved. Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD ; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

James in James 2:21 was referring to Genesis chapter 22, while Paul in Romans 4:3 was referring to Genesis 15:6.

Abraham was eternally saved the very moment he placed his faith in the Lord. Many years later, when Abraham had matured spiritually, God gave him a test involving Isaac which he passed, gaining the stamp of God's approval.





Yes, but it has nothing to do with eternal salvation. It has to do with life after having been saved. Faith in Christ results in positional Sanctification, while spiritual growth after salvation results in exeriential sanctification.



It is called volition. Free will. God provides the Gospel information and man must make a volitional decision as to whether he believes it or not. God has no wish to coerce man's volition in salvation. The entire issue concerning why man is on this earth is to use his God given volition to decide for or against Jesus Christ. And he is held responsible for how he decides.

I don't think you are going to understand anything that I've said, or even want to try. Therefore, believe what you want. I am not responsible for what anyone believes. I can only present the facts.
Mike, God has gifted me to understand what is rational. In order to do that, I cannot ADHERE to what is INCORRECT or CONTRARY to God's own word. I know it take God to place that understanding in your heart and I have confidence in the Hope that He will do so, whether that be now or later. Either way, I know eventually you will come to realize that God has been contrary to your position on your understanding of Faith.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:01 PM
 
18,153 posts, read 13,871,686 times
Reputation: 5944
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I don't believe the Bible preaches that dead faith (faith without works) can save.



Yet, Paul said the law was ordained unto life:

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.




It is clear that you have stated that we cannot do the works of Christ. But Christ Himself says otherwise if we have Him.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Obviously the Spirit of the Christ is to do His Fathers will which is the Law of God.



Mike, God has gifted me to understand what is rational. In order to do that, I cannot ADHERE to what is INCORRECT or CONTRARY to God's own word. I know it take God to place that understanding in your heart and I have confidence in the Hope that He will do so, whether that be now or later. Either way, I know eventually you will come to realize that God has been contrary to your position on your understanding of Faith.
The reality is that you simply reject fundamental Christianity. As I said, if you will not believe the truth, then believe what you want. You're the one who is held responsible for it.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,259,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The reality is that you simply reject fundamental Christianity. As I said, if you will not believe the truth, then believe what you want. You're the one who is held responsible for it.
Mike, I cannot except what is contrary to Christ Jesus and there is no doubt in my mind that fundamental Christianity is NOT preaching Jesus Christ but rather they are preaching an Anti-Christ.

And of course, I will be held responsible. But think about your comment Mike, your obviously a bit disturbed so you LASH out now and say I will be held responsible for it. Mike, I believe we ALL are held responsible for EVERYTHING we say.

Mike, do you really not want to CHALLENGE what I say? Is that "Good" for your faith that I should get by so freely without your challenge to what I percieve as the Truth?
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:31 PM
 
18,153 posts, read 13,871,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike, I cannot except what is contrary to Christ Jesus and there is no doubt in my mind that fundamental Christianity is NOT preaching Jesus Christ but rather they are preaching an Anti-Christ.

And of course, I will be held responsible. But think about your comment Mike, your obviously a bit disturbed so you LASH out now and say I will be held responsible for it. Mike, I believe we ALL are held responsible for EVERYTHING we say.

Mike, do you really not want to CHALLENGE what I say? Is that "Good" for your faith that I should get by so freely without your challenge to what I percieve as the Truth?
No, I am not disturbed in the least. Nor have I lashed out. I've already stated the truth. You reject it. You are simply one of many who have departed from the truth. Therefore simply believe the lie. If you want to debate, find someone else. I have no desire to keep going back and forth in order to get the last word. Nor can you goad me into continuing. But feel free to try. You'll tire of it eventually.
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:46 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,412,744 times
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I like, Mike, that everytime someone mentions you needing works in the bible, all you say, is that is doesn't pertain to salvation.
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