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Old 10-07-2010, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,264,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, I am not disturbed in the least. Nor have I lashed out. I've already stated the truth. You reject it. You are simply one of many who have departed from the truth. Therefore simply believe the lie. If you want to debate, find someone else. I have no desire to keep going back and forth in order to get the last word. Nor can you goad me into continuing. But feel free to try. You'll tire of it eventually.
Mike, I don't believe what your preaching is the Truth especially when Paul clearly says that aionios Life and immortality are given based on works. That means Works are a requirement for obtaining salvation.

Furthermore, if you read Revelation chapters 2 and 3 you will see a judgment taking place where God is judging things based on works.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


To put that verse in context more look at a preceding verse:

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.


All through out Revelations Chapters 2 and 3 we see that WORKS are a basis for condemnation and salvation.

Sin is the transgression of the Law. So Mike, I would ask you this if God doesn't base salvation on works then why would He base condemnation upon works?
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:47 PM
 
18,184 posts, read 13,898,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike, I don't believe what your preaching is the Truth especially when Paul clearly says that aionios Life and immortality are given based on works. That means Works are a requirement for obtaining salvation.

Furthermore, if you read Revelation chapters 2 and 3 you will see a judgment taking place where God is judging things based on works.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


To put that verse in context more look at a preceding verse:

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.


All through out Revelations Chapters 2 and 3 we see that WORKS are a basis for condemnation and salvation.

Sin is the transgression of the Law. So Mike, I would ask you this if God doesn't base salvation on works then why would He base condemnation upon works?
Here are two older threads of mine in which that has been addressed and one on rewards. Get your answer there. And whereas before you were saying that man must do works of Christ for salvation, you now seem to be sayng that man must do works period for salvation, thus contradicting yourself. As I said, believe what you wish. It is a waste of my time to keep going over and over the same things with people who simply oppose the truth and will not listen. I have better things to do.


Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works

Refuting Lordship Salvation

The Crowns and Eternal Rewards of the Believer who Overcomes
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:03 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,424 posts, read 9,048,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
All through out Revelations Chapters 2 and 3 we see that WORKS are a basis for condemnation and salvation.

Sin is the transgression of the Law. So Mike, I would ask you this if God doesn't base salvation on works then why would He base condemnation upon works?
Because a person is judged by this command:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

Either you're standing before God by faith trusting Jesus' work of perfection as your subsitute from sin...........or ...... you're standing in front of God by rejecting Jesus' work of perfection and instead trusting on your own efforts. God then judges based on your works, not Jesus' and will find you less than perfect.

It's a either or ... not a combination. It's Jesus' works by faith from sin or your works in faith of yourself from sin.

The result of being less than perfect is damnation for not believing.
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:46 PM
 
14,699 posts, read 7,470,565 times
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Substitution?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of the SPIRIT is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Two inflectional points of an apparent path.
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Old 10-08-2010, 06:39 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,264,263 times
Reputation: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Here are two older threads of mine in which that has been addressed and one on rewards. Get your answer there. And whereas before you were saying that man must do works of Christ for salvation, you now seem to be sayng that man must do works period for salvation, thus contradicting yourself. As I said, believe what you wish. It is a waste of my time to keep going over and over the same things with people who simply oppose the truth and will not listen. I have better things to do.


Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works

Refuting Lordship Salvation

The Crowns and Eternal Rewards of the Believer who Overcomes
Let me clarify in case you think I speaking contradiction, the only works that are required are those of Christ done thru us. Anyone that preaches that we don't need to do works in order to be saved is preaching error. Any branch that doesn't produce fruit is pruned from the vine.
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Old 10-08-2010, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,264,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Because a person is judged by this command:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

Either you're standing before God by faith trusting Jesus' work of perfection as your subsitute from sin...........or ...... you're standing in front of God by rejecting Jesus' work of perfection and instead trusting on your own efforts. God then judges based on your works, not Jesus' and will find you less than perfect.

It's a either or ... not a combination. It's Jesus' works by faith from sin or your works in faith of yourself from sin.

The result of being less than perfect is damnation for not believing.
Twin.spin. The works that save us are not our own but the works of Christ Jesus done thru us. So am I saying that OUR works save us? - absolutely not. Our works are indeed sin. But His (Christ) works are NOT sin but rather righteousness. So if we have Christ we do His works. All throughout the new covenant you see that it is preached that our works cannot save us. But what others fail to see is the other message preached and that is that His works shall save us. When we do His works (He has a copyright on all good works) then we may be saved.

Remember Jesus inspected the fruit of the tree to see if it was acceptable or not. Jesus said that any branched that doesn't produce fruit shall be pruned from the vine. In the parable of the pounds/talents we see that those that didn't produce were not approved of.
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Old 10-08-2010, 11:47 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,424 posts, read 9,048,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Twin.spin. The works that save us are not our own but the works of Christ Jesus done thru us. So am I saying that OUR works save us? - absolutely not. Our works are indeed sin. But His (Christ) works are NOT sin but rather righteousness. So if we have Christ we do His works. All throughout the new covenant you see that it is preached that our works cannot save us. But what others fail to see is the other message preached and that is that His works shall save us. When we do His works (He has a copyright on all good works) then we may be saved.

Remember Jesus inspected the fruit of the tree to see if it was acceptable or not. Jesus said that any branched that doesn't produce fruit shall be pruned from the vine. In the parable of the pounds/talents we see that those that didn't produce were not approved of.
What I was trying to explain your question on why God judges the unbeliever based on their works and not the believer.

God see's the believer not on the basis of we do or not do, but what on what Christ done for us. And that is only accomplished by faith.

Also remember that Jesus' teachings was not all to one specific topic. Jesus also spoke to those who do lip service and to those who look to their own efforts. Your for example above, the focus of Jesus was on the flow - the faith that is producing, not on what is produced is what saves.

Your example is putting the cart infront of the horse.
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:51 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,264,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
What I was trying to explain your question on why God judges the unbeliever based on their works and not the believer.

God see's the believer not on the basis of we do or not do, but what on what Christ done for us. And that is only accomplished by faith.

Also remember that Jesus' teachings was not all to one specific topic. Jesus also spoke to those who do lip service and to those who look to their own efforts. Your for example above, the focus of Jesus was on the flow - the faith that is producing, not on what is produced is what saves.

Your example is putting the cart infront of the horse.
We are judged by what Christ is doing thru us. If we have not His works then we have not Him.

Remember Grace doesn't come first, Faith does. Faith is the means by which we access Grace.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God gives us Faith such that even Faith is not of ourselves. The Apostles understood that Faith was not of themselves and even ask for more of it:

Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

Obviously, if Faith was of themselves they wouldn't have asked the Lord to increase their Faith.
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:29 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,424 posts, read 9,048,083 times
Reputation: 1252
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
We are judged by what Christ is doing thru us. If we have not His works then we have not Him.

Remember Grace doesn't come first, Faith does. Faith is the means by which we access Grace.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God gives us Faith such that even Faith is not of ourselves. The Apostles understood that Faith was not of themselves and even ask for more of it:

Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

Obviously, if Faith was of themselves they wouldn't have asked the Lord to increase their Faith.
The Apostles didn't ask "increase our ability to do works" or "increase our ability to obey the law" or "increase our ability to prove our worthiness" ....... The great "by faith" chapters Galations 4, Hebrews 3
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,264,263 times
Reputation: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The Apostles didn't ask "increase our ability to do works" or "increase our ability to obey the law" or "increase our ability to prove our worthiness" ....... The great "by faith" chapters Galations 4, Hebrews 3
Twin.spin, there is an ancient writing that talks about the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. That doctrine is one where someone believes they are saved without doing the works of Christ such that many were teaching they could be saved through a belief without such works.
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