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Old 10-10-2010, 05:10 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Twin.spin, there is an ancient writing that talks about the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. That doctrine is one where someone believes they are saved without doing the works of Christ such that many were teaching they could be saved through a belief without such works.
Ok ... and I don't know what that has to do with the Bible.

Paul references Habakkuk 2:4 "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Paul repeats that in Galatians 3:11, and quotes God in Hebrews 10:38


There are different lessons Jesus taught depending if it was meant for the works righteous or for the the lip service.
What happens all too often is the works righteous crowd reads what is meant for the "lip service" and trys to justify salvation by works.
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Old 10-10-2010, 05:21 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Paul clearly says that aionios Life and immortality are given based on works. That means Works are a requirement for obtaining salvation.
There is salvation and there is the first inheritance. Salvation is without works: but obtaining that eternal glory that comes with our salvation as a vessel unto honour in God's House is the high calling of Christ. It is that first inheritance which is at stake: never salvation.

Quote:
Furthermore, if you read Revelation chapters 2 and 3 you will see a judgment taking place where God is judging things based on works.
How To Really Overcome

Quote:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The promise not to blot out his name out of the book of life is an emphatic assurance of the eternal security of all believers. The statement in Greek contains a double negative, which may be translated,"I will by no means blot out his name."

From this link comparing the Textus Receptus Greek Text KJB with Strongs Dictionary:

Revelation Chapter 3 - King James Bible With Strong's Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com

Looking up that double negative word found in Revelation 3:5

Strong's Greek Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com

Changes how we read that verse as it falls in line with salvation not of works.

Quote:
To put that verse in context more look at a preceding verse:

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

All through out Revelations Chapters 2 and 3 we see that WORKS are a basis for condemnation and salvation.
From the first link provided in this post: there is a call to repentance and to hold fast His works.

Revelation 2: 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So His work is what we are to keep unto the end. Read His work below.

Colossians 1:Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;....27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

It may very well be that the call to repentance is to cease from their own works in obtaining salvation so as to enter into that rest.

Hebrews 4: 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.....9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
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Old 10-10-2010, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Ok ... and I don't know what that has to do with the Bible.

Paul references Habakkuk 2:4 "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Paul repeats that in Galatians 3:11, and quotes God in Hebrews 10:38


There are different lessons Jesus taught depending if it was meant for the works righteous or for the the lip service.
What happens all too often is the works righteous crowd reads what is meant for the "lip service" and trys to justify salvation by works.
What it has to do with the Bible is this:

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Paul writes:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Eternal Life and Immortality is definately SALVATION. So Paul is telling us that Salvation will be given according to the works we have done.
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Old 10-10-2010, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,267,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
There is salvation and there is the first inheritance. Salvation is without works: but obtaining that eternal glory that comes with our salvation as a vessel unto honour in God's House is the high calling of Christ. It is that first inheritance which is at stake: never salvation.



How To Really Overcome



The promise not to blot out his name out of the book of life is an emphatic assurance of the eternal security of all believers. The statement in Greek contains a double negative, which may be translated,"I will by no means blot out his name."

From this link comparing the Textus Receptus Greek Text KJB with Strongs Dictionary:

Revelation Chapter 3 - King James Bible With Strong's Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com

Looking up that double negative word found in Revelation 3:5

Strong's Greek Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com

Changes how we read that verse as it falls in line with salvation not of works.



From the first link provided in this post: there is a call to repentance and to hold fast His works.

Revelation 2: 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So His work is what we are to keep unto the end. Read His work below.

Colossians 1:Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;....27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

It may very well be that the call to repentance is to cease from their own works in obtaining salvation so as to enter into that rest.

Hebrews 4: 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.....9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Enow, if we don't have the work of Christ, we are not saved. Works are required:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Eternal life and immortality is going to be rendered to us BASED ON WORKS. Now this doesn't mean these works are ours. After all Paul also preached that we are not saved by OUR Works. But many have errored and believe that we are not saved by ANY works.
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
there is an ancient writing that talks about the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. That doctrine is one where someone believes they are saved without doing the works of Christ such that many were teaching they could be saved through a belief without such works.
There is a doctrine of the Nicolaitanes and there is the deeds of the Nicolaitanes.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

The deeds of the Nicolaitanes was involving works of the flesh with no repentance. It is true that Jesus calls believers to repent, but that is a far cry in saying they will lose their salvation. They will lose their first inheritance, defrauding themselves of that glory of being a vessel unto honour in God's House to be received as the chaste bride of Christ.

The doctrines of the Nicolaitanes involves having a heirarchy that rules as a governing body over the churches when Jesus Christ is to be the head of each church. The danger here is being like those Pharisees that sit in MOses seat to rule and yet Jesus came and to serve and not be served.

Neither topic addresses works that is a requirement for salvation. This ancient writing of yours as a source is circumspect and should be treated as such.
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:27 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Enow, if we don't have the work of Christ, we are not saved. Works are required:
How does one receive the work of Christ?

Revelation 2: 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So His work is what we are to keep unto the end. Read His work below.

Colossians 1:Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;....

Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So by the law of faith, we as believers are justified in the sight of God.

Quote:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Revelation 22: 10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Titus 1:15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

So how can one ascertain how they stand with the Lord except by according to His word?

1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Quote:
Eternal life and immortality is going to be rendered to us BASED ON WORKS. Now this doesn't mean these works are ours. After all Paul also preached that we are not saved by OUR Works. But many have errored and believe that we are not saved by ANY works.
All I can say is that if a person do works for justification as in for salvation, then he is rejecting what Christ has done at the cross. One has to be careful not to engage in dead works that deny Him. One does not ever want to be the person whose works deny Him as being able.

It is His righteousness and His faithfulness that shall present us faultless and that is His work we are to maintain and keep in regards to the faith.

Romans 4: 1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

If you still disagree: what works would you say is necessary for salvation and how much one has to do in order to keep his salvation?

I believe we are called in that high calling of Christ to run the race, but even then that is by looking unto the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin: but not for salvation: for that first inheritance when one is received by the Bridegroom at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. This "work" is still riding on the hope that is in Christ Jesus in living the christian life as well as resting in Him for eternal life.

Jesus gave this call to rest in Him as we are to cease from our own works for justification to be witnesses of the Good News that is in Christ Jesus now. If we are not quite saved yet, then what kind of a witness is that?

Either a believer hopes in Jesus to help them live the christian life as they do trust Him for eternal life or.... a house divided cannot stand.

If we divide that hope in Christ with works, then that singular hope ceases to be hope. Let nothing divide your hope in Jesus Christ.
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
There is a doctrine of the Nicolaitanes and there is the deeds of the Nicolaitanes.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

The deeds of the Nicolaitanes was involving works of the flesh with no repentance. It is true that Jesus calls believers to repent, but that is a far cry in saying they will lose their salvation. They will lose their first inheritance, defrauding themselves of that glory of being a vessel unto honour in God's House to be received as the chaste bride of Christ.

The doctrines of the Nicolaitanes involves having a heirarchy that rules as a governing body over the churches when Jesus Christ is to be the head of each church. The danger here is being like those Pharisees that sit in MOses seat to rule and yet Jesus came and to serve and not be served.

Neither topic addresses works that is a requirement for salvation. This ancient writing of yours as a source is circumspect and should be treated as such.
I haven't seen any writings that make such a distinction. Was wondering your sources for this. I can provide the following link to that which is about what I presented:

ANF07. Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
How does one receive the work of Christ?

Revelation 2: 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So His work is what we are to keep unto the end. Read His work below.

Colossians 1:Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;....

Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So by the law of faith, we as believers are justified in the sight of God.



Revelation 22: 10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Titus 1:15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

So how can one ascertain how they stand with the Lord except by according to His word?

1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.



All I can say is that if a person do works for justification as in for salvation, then he is rejecting what Christ has done at the cross. One has to be careful not to engage in dead works that deny Him. One does not ever want to be the person whose works deny Him as being able.

It is His righteousness and His faithfulness that shall present us faultless and that is His work we are to maintain and keep in regards to the faith.

Romans 4: 1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

If you still disagree: what works would you say is necessary for salvation and how much one has to do in order to keep his salvation?

I believe we are called in that high calling of Christ to run the race, but even then that is by looking unto the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin: but not for salvation: for that first inheritance when one is received by the Bridegroom at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. This "work" is still riding on the hope that is in Christ Jesus in living the christian life as well as resting in Him for eternal life.

Jesus gave this call to rest in Him as we are to cease from our own works for justification to be witnesses of the Good News that is in Christ Jesus now. If we are not quite saved yet, then what kind of a witness is that?

Either a believer hopes in Jesus to help them live the christian life as they do trust Him for eternal life or.... a house divided cannot stand.

If we divide that hope in Christ with works, then that singular hope ceases to be hope. Let nothing divide your hope in Jesus Christ.
In Romans 4:1 is reads the following:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Notice that verse says "as pertaining to the flesh". That piece is very important as it sets up the context for the "works" discussed in the following verses. So in Romans 4 we are learning that the works of the flesh cannot save you. But the works of Christ were not "as pertaining to the flesh". For His works were righteous and those are our requirement for salvation. The works of Christ are these:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Those are the works of Christ. If you do not both of those commandments then you have not the works of Christ.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:58 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I haven't seen any writings that make such a distinction. Was wondering your sources for this.
It was done by recollection after researching the topic on the internet some time ago. It resides in the meaning of the name of the Nicolaitans as in the "to conquer the laity".

This was not my original source as I did try to find my original sources on the internet ( there were two ), but it does address this doctrine.

THE DOCTRINE OF THE NICOLAITANES (http://www.church.sierra-vista.az.us/church/tst/nicolaitanes.htm - broken link)

It does apply salvation by works as being a doctrine of the Nicolaitanes.

It is hard reading but it did mentioned about leaving their first love of which I could see that happening by seeking salvation by works. I see that they had mentioned the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, but I fail to see their explanation of the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes. I see that they had incorporated the doctrine of Balaam as if implying the same thing as the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, but my Bible seems to suggest they are seperate and different....or am I reading this wrong?

Revelation 2: 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

Anyway: it was hard reading that link. I may be reading it wrong.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:05 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
In Romans 4:1 is reads the following:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Notice that verse says "as pertaining to the flesh". That piece is very important as it sets up the context for the "works" discussed in the following verses. So in Romans 4 we are learning that the works of the flesh cannot save you. But the works of Christ were not "as pertaining to the flesh". For His works were righteous and those are our requirement for salvation. The works of Christ are these:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Those are the works of Christ. If you do not both of those commandments then you have not the works of Christ.
Now wait a minute. That is you saying that these are the works of Christ. It did not say that these be the works of Christ. Besides:

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So how come Jesus did not mentioned them as the works of Christ or God?

The works of Christ has to mean His death on the cross. He said "It is finished" for a reason. Either we believe in Him that it is and thus we have received our salvation or you are still not saved yet because you are still doing your works of Christ to be saved.
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