U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-13-2010, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,262,854 times
Reputation: 570

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
It was done by recollection after researching the topic on the internet some time ago. It resides in the meaning of the name of the Nicolaitans as in the "to conquer the laity".

This was not my original source as I did try to find my original sources on the internet ( there were two ), but it does address this doctrine.

THE DOCTRINE OF THE NICOLAITANES (http://www.church.sierra-vista.az.us/church/tst/nicolaitanes.htm - broken link)

It does apply salvation by works as being a doctrine of the Nicolaitanes.

It did not produce any ancient source at all.

Quote:
It is hard reading but it did mentioned about leaving their first love of which I could see that happening by seeking salvation by works. I see that they had mentioned the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, but I fail to see their explanation of the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes. I see that they had incorporated the doctrine of Balaam as if implying the same thing as the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, but my Bible seems to suggest they are seperate and different....or am I reading this wrong?

Revelation 2: 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

Anyway: it was hard reading that link. I may be reading it wrong.
Actually, I do see that the doctine of Balaam is the same as the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes. So I agree with you there. But my point is that I'm not trying to say your wrong. I'm just trying to show you what is right in the hopes you can wrap your arms around something new to embrace.

Let me know Enow if you don't understand or disagree. As you can see by my responses, I seek proof and understanding. I'm sure you agree that is a good thing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-13-2010, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,262,854 times
Reputation: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Now wait a minute. That is you saying that these are the works of Christ. It did not say that these be the works of Christ. Besides:

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So how come Jesus did not mentioned them as the works of Christ or God?

The works of Christ has to mean His death on the cross. He said "It is finished" for a reason. Either we believe in Him that it is and thus we have received our salvation or you are still not saved yet because you are still doing your works of Christ to be saved.
Heh, Enow, your talking to the one that knows. This is easy, Christ is the very breath of God. What was finsihed was the fullfilment of the Scriptures as to showed the fullyment that Christ Jesus was that fullfillment by the very actions that transpired.

Again, your are only saved when you are performing God's Will which is also the will of His Son - Jesus Christ. Dead Faith will NEVER save you. James made it clear that Faith without works was Dead! And Dead Faith cannot save you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2010, 10:11 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,449,780 times
Reputation: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Heh, Enow, your talking to the one that knows. This is easy, Christ is the very breath of God. What was finsihed was the fullfilment of the Scriptures as to showed the fullyment that Christ Jesus was that fullfillment by the very actions that transpired.

Again, your are only saved when you are performing God's Will which is also the will of His Son - Jesus Christ. Dead Faith will NEVER save you. James made it clear that Faith without works was Dead! And Dead Faith cannot save you.
The fact that you believe is the answer of the good conscience towards God, and thus we are saved so that we can be witesses of the Good News now.

1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Abdiding in Christ Jesus is another matter. It involves being His disciple and running the race by looking unto the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us.

So the call is to every believer that name the name of Christ to depart from inqiuity so that they may be that vessel unto honour in God's House with His help by His grace.

Salvation is not the issue. If it was, then where is the Good News? Where is that rest in Christ Jesus? Where is the easy yoke and the light burden that the poor in spirit can come and be blessed and the little children in receiving the Kingdom of God? Where is the simplicity of the Gospel?

The works of Christ are exactly what they mean... Christ's works and it has to deal with the cross.

His commandments: the two in 1 John 3:22-24 are about abiding in Him. Those are not grievious commandments for abiding in Him as disciples.

Not every one that is called will be chosen because not everyone will abide in Christ. But just as the foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps and the prodigal sons will be returning: in spite of the loss of their first inheritance of being left behind at the rapture event, they have His seal for they have been bought with a price: by His work on the cross in being saved. The reality of all believers is that Jesus Christ is in us. All believers should be reminded of that fact so that they may be more conscience in how they walk and talk in their daily lives with the Lord. The question "What would Jesus do?" is irrelevant when Jesus is with us always. This fact of reality in regards to our faith should be known by all believers.

To put salvation at jeopardy for any one that is a believer is a work that would be denying Him. It is the first inheritance that is in jeopardy for not abiding in Him. The Lord does not go around losing people He has saved, That does not go to the glory of God nor His power in salvation, but God the Father will chasten every child He receives: and no believer will want to be left behind. As many as the Lord Jesus loves, He chastens, the call for believers is to be zealous and repent because judgment will be falling on the House of God soon as it must come first: 1 Peter 4:17-19

So the works of Christ are done for believers to rest in for salvation at the cross, but the abiding in Christ is the continual call for every believer that wishes to be a disciple in following Him to obtain that first inheritance as a vessel unto honour in God's House. That too is being done by the grace and the help of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2012, 06:39 AM
 
2 posts, read 877 times
Reputation: 10
Default Not true

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Healey View Post
I am wondering why nobody has mentioned the following verse:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24 (NRSV)

I'm along the Catholic lines of Christianity. I believe faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. IIRC, This was a big disagreement with the Catholic and Lutheran Church. Luther believed you were saved by faith alone, while Catholics believe you are saved by faith and works!

-Pat Healey
This is the problem. You aren't saved by faith nor by works but by the grace of God.

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:16
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2012, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
22,213 posts, read 11,717,115 times
Reputation: 8205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todayandtomorrow123 View Post
This is the problem. You aren't saved by faith nor by works but by the grace of God.
Be careful...

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2012, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
22,213 posts, read 11,717,115 times
Reputation: 8205
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Again, your are only saved when you are performing God's Will which is also the will of His Son - Jesus Christ. Dead Faith will NEVER save you. James made it clear that Faith without works was Dead! And Dead Faith cannot save you.
The red above is not a biblical statement.

"Dead" is not meant as an absence of faith - but the faith is useless.

James 2:20 - But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Faith is the vehicle by God sends the Holy Spirit to us. The presence of the Spirit in us is what saves. So can a person have a useless faith while at the same time possessing the Holy Spirit? Yes, I believe so - that's the point of James' warning.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2012, 11:06 AM
 
467 posts, read 514,017 times
Reputation: 210
To Ascend permanently, we must follow the Mosaic Laws, and balance our karma through becoming one with God the I AM Presence. We can only do this through prayer and good deeds, ie, works. No, God isn't going to just take us back in to heaven permanently just through faith. To achieve permanence, we must become what God wants us to be, which requires work.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2012, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
22,213 posts, read 11,717,115 times
Reputation: 8205
Quote:
Originally Posted by markymarc View Post
To Ascend permanently, we must follow the Mosaic Laws, and balance our karma through becoming one with God the I AM Presence. We can only do this through prayer and good deeds, ie, works. No, God isn't going to just take us back in to heaven permanently just through faith. To achieve permanence, we must become what God wants us to be, which requires work.
What's the source for this?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2012, 12:49 PM
 
2,531 posts, read 1,792,538 times
Reputation: 320
One can not have faith in Christ without becoming like Him because He gives of His very own nature to those who believe in Him. Works will follow surely as day follows night or it is not the kind of faith that God is talking about. It is written, "Faith is the substance of things not seen." The substance is love, peace, joy and wisdom, etc., both for yourself and to freely share with others as you have been freely given.

It does not depend on how much works because God gives differant talents to all depending on ones ability for the moment to "see". The overall guidline to doing works is as it is written, "Let us do good to all men as we have oppertunity." Some can only speak the truth because they are invalid but their reward is the same as St. Paul. The reward/actually a gift, is Christ. All of Him!

God presents the opportunities to help. We need not get all worked up and make those opportunities ourselfs. Jesus said prepare through prayer, study and waiting on the Lord. Your intend of will to do His will is the key to being able to do it when He calls. First and foremost is that salvation is a state of being in Christ [be Holy, be perfect in Him]. He creates Holiness in you, not you, and then you will be ready to do when prompted to. It is written, "Why call Me Lord and do not the things I ask you to do."

Works will bear the proof of your faith but it is not according to how much you do but whether you are doing what He provided for you, so that you might grow in the benefit of Godly living and others might grow with you.

Again I say, it is impossible to have that kind of faith that the Bible is talking about without the works of good word and deeds following. Everything in Christ is powerfull and eternal. Consider the writings of Paul or Peter, how they speak to the whole world even today because they convey the eternal mind of Christ. So also, any work we do in the love of Christ will ripple outward and multiply in ways we do not realize and all will have eternal in value.

Have you sent out your own epistle to a loved one or to someone in need today? Have you called that one who needs comfort or a word of hope? Jesus said, MT 25:40 "In as much as you have done it to the least of these My brothers, you have done it unto Me."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-22-2012, 01:38 PM
 
6,827 posts, read 4,338,290 times
Reputation: 3693
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
One can not have faith in Christ without becoming like Him because He gives of His very own nature to those who believe in Him. Works will follow surely as day follows night or it is not the kind of faith that God is talking about. It is written, "Faith is the substance of things not seen." The substance is love, peace, joy and wisdom, etc., both for yourself and to freely share with others as you have been freely given.

It does not depend on how much works because God gives differant talents to all depending on ones ability for the moment to "see". The overall guidline to doing works is as it is written, "Let us do good to all men as we have oppertunity." Some can only speak the truth because they are invalid but their reward is the same as St. Paul. The reward/actually a gift, is Christ. All of Him!

God presents the opportunities to help. We need not get all worked up and make those opportunities ourselfs. Jesus said prepare through prayer, study and waiting on the Lord. Your intend of will to do His will is the key to being able to do it when He calls. First and foremost is that salvation is a state of being in Christ [be Holy, be perfect in Him]. He creates Holiness in you, not you, and then you will be ready to do when prompted to. It is written, "Why call Me Lord and do not the things I ask you to do."

Works will bear the proof of your faith but it is not according to how much you do but whether you are doing what He provided for you, so that you might grow in the benefit of Godly living and others might grow with you.

Again I say, it is impossible to have that kind of faith that the Bible is talking about without the works of good word and deeds following. Everything in Christ is powerfull and eternal. Consider the writings of Paul or Peter, how they speak to the whole world even today because they convey the eternal mind of Christ. So also, any work we do in the love of Christ will ripple outward and multiply in ways we do not realize and all will have eternal in value.

Have you sent out your own epistle to a loved one or to someone in need today? Have you called that one who needs comfort or a word of hope? Jesus said, MT 25:40 "In as much as you have done it to the least of these My brothers, you have done it unto Me."
The confusion of the faith versus works debates comes down to confusing cause and effect. One isn't saved by their ability to conform to the image of Jesus Christ with the new nature God has given them. They are saved only by believing in heart in God's Works in the the blood of Jesus Christ shed for their sins with faith in the resurrection. Upon believing one is baptized with the Holy Spirit of promise which seals the individual until the "day of redemption". The soul is Saved passing "from death unto life". Salvation from eternal Damnation is 100 percent a Work of God. Man is helpless to help themselves. The "good news" of the gospel is that God out of his love for mankind gave his only begotten son for them. The fulfillment of the Law in him, all man's burden is for life to simply believe on whom he sent. What is freely given isn't taken back. The model of God's Grace and ultimate demonstration for us is the Thief on the cross. The man was not fortunate he did not have the time to fail in his walk to enter paradise. All sins past, present, and future are entirely forgiven for those declared Justified in Christ.

This is just the beginning of the Christian walk. God works in and through the believer conforming them into the image of his Son. It is all God's works - even the process of sanctification separating them unto God by the power of his Holy Spirit. The born again child of God has a new nature and new heart desiring to please God. It's all God's works in and through the believer.

Ephesians 2:10 says "for we are his workmanship" Created in Christ Jesus. God is working in and through the clay. He is the Potter, and we are the clay. Even the preservation of the Saints is an act of God. << This is the misunderstanding many have with the Faith/Works debates.

Why this is important is that many have distorted the concept of Grace freely given to include the Walk of the believer. This is not faith in God Jesus Christ but puts the focus and trust on our walk. Just as one falling off a building backwards with faith God will catch them, that is what God wants from us. This is faith. He says believe on whom he sent to Justify us. Abraham offered Issac with faith God will do what he said - resurrect him. The faith is in God's faithfulness to his Word.

It's a shame so many Christians do not understand the rest God has freely given us in Jesus Christ and his completed work. Many have a legal relationship with God, but God says those justified are forgiven for their trespasses and are no longer in prison to be judged to death but freely set free and in the family room. Jesus Christ is not condemning believers in their failures in their walk but interceding for them.

A born again child of God trusting God's Works in Jesus Christ can not lose their Justification/Salvation from Perdition, but they can forfeit all that God has for them through unfaithfulness. Inheritance can be lost, and I believe that many Saved Christians could be in for a huge surprise. I do believe those that are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ but attempting to "get" to heaven by their walk could have all this effort go up as wood, hay, and stubble as it is misrepresenting the Grace of God. God also goes to the motive/heart of the action not the Work in of itself. Many good works could be done with the wrong motive. Many are with the motive that with their ability to refrain from sinning and doing good things they will be justified. This is not trusting Christ however but trusting self.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

As for Matthew 25, this is talking about the Judging of the Persons upon the return of Jesus Christ going into the millennium. This is a Works-based Judgment in which those will be judged based upon their treatment of God's people Israel. The Church will be gone at this time, and God will be working with the World as he did in the past through Israel. Those that survive the Great Tribulation and are declared by the Lord Jesus Christ as able to enter his Kingdom will be populating the world in the millennium.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top