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Old 01-08-2010, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 5,199,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
This isn`t scripture.
So you concede and have stated that you cannot analyze the language of the Biblical text and provide a detailed exegesis of it?
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
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If you pray for God's Divine Love he will show you the truth. Jesus is our Messenger that brought us God's message to pray for his Divine Love. Jesus is not God.


What does it mean to be "born again?"
It is the flowing of the Holy Spirit into the soul of a man and the disappearing of all that tended to keep it in a condition of sin and error. It is not the workings of the man's own will but the Grace of God. It is the Love of God that passes all understanding. If you seek God's Love you will soon experience the change / Let your heart be open to the knockings of the Spirit, and keep your mind free from thoughts of sin.

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Old 01-08-2010, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,220,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
So you concede and have stated that you cannot analyze the language of the Biblical text and provide a detailed exegesis of it?
I think spm is referring to the fact that there is no scripture that states Jesus is God in order to analyze....

Just my two cents though. I don't mind analyzing scripture that you think states that Jesus is God.. perhaps you missed my earlier post and response to you which I think is back on page 7.

Let me know the structure of the argument and I would be happy to oblige. I would like to set ground rules to narrow the focus and regulate the content so we don't go off on tangents though.. what do you think? Sounds fun to me.
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:47 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,284,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
At what point do you call God Jesus then? If Jesus is God why call him Jesus if he no longer fits that name?? Yet you retain the name Jesus because you know that Jesus and God are two separate figures... right? or are those two names interchangeable?

I always thought that if Jesus is God and Jesus as God returned to heaven then he would stop being Jesus right?
So why call God Jesus anymore.
If what you truly believe is that Jesus is God then hasn't Jesus ceased to exist and God is the only one in heaven in a merger of like substance?
or do the two same beings remain separate in heaven yet are still the same?
because they are 3 persons, co-eternal....You don't believe the Holy Spirit is God as well?
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 5,199,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Ok.. I think it would be best to DM right? or do you think you have the ability to address every point I make on the thread?

I have tried to go in depth but all you do is state how un-enlightened I am or something similar. But if you truly want to debate I have no problem with doing all that work to spell it out for you...

So what do you want.. an outline that you can address or do you want me to go the long route? Either way if you are going to give a one-liner as a response stating that there is something wrong with me personally then I would rather not bother!
Of course I wouldn't give you one liners. If I ask you to perform this, not for me, but for the thousands of people that visit this forum, so that they too can understand how you come to these conclusions, is pertinent, I would expect you and everyone else to expect the same for me, as I have done, and will do again.

I will address each and every point you make, detailed and in comparison with the scripture, but I do expect you and others to do the same.

Saying Christ is not God, with one or two verses taken out of their context is damaging to the overall message of the verses in questions, and must be meticulously aligned with the language as well, so that no false doctrines arise out of it. If you think the early church fathers erred in their analysis of Christ's deity, then you must prove, in like manner, with a detailed analysis of why He isn't, in order to do justice to the faith in its entirety and your reputation as a skilled interpretor. Otherwise, you are just another false teacher pushing your paradigm based on zero exegesis.
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 5,199,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I think spm is referring to the fact that there is no scripture that states Jesus is God in order to analyze....
The entire Chrtistian church thinks otherwise, for reasons being that it was.

Quote:
Just my two cents though. I don't mind analyzing scripture that you think states that Jesus is God.. perhaps you missed my earlier post and response to you which I think is back on page 7.

Let me know the structure of the argument and I would be happy to oblige. I would like to set ground rules to narrow the focus and regulate the content so we don't go off on tangents though.. what do you think? Sounds fun to me.
I agree completely. Formal debate guidleines to be in place, maybe even ask the mods to "sticky it" so it doesn't get lost. We can start another thread if you like, but I expect you to take some time in this, because this is very important, not just for you, but for everyone that comes here.

Say 4000 words to state your case and we will go from there?
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:41 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,705,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
because they are 3 persons, co-eternal....You don't believe the Holy Spirit is God as well?
God the Father is spirit. So he is the Holy Spirit. There aren`t 2 Holy Spirits that are God. Jesus is not the Father. He has the fullness of God living within him,just like we all will. That does not make us the Father. Do you have the spirit of God living within you? If you do,then what does that make you? How many spirits live within you? Jesus has the title of God but he is not the Father. ALL things came out from the Father. The Father did not come out from anything or anybody. Jesus however,came out from the Father. Therefore, he can not also be the Father in the sense that you would like us to believe. He is the exact image of the Father. We too are made in God`s image. But it does not make us the Father. We have a part of God within us. That is what our consciousness is. Where does consciousness come from? What is consciousness..consciousness of who we are,what we are,where we came from? Let us make man in our image! Does that mean God has fingers and toes? NO! We have a consciousness that is like God. We can know,we can understand,we can reason. But we are not God the Father. We are not God almighty himself but he gave us a part of him. Just like your earthly children are not you. But their earthly bodies are an image of you. There is a likeness. A genetic likeness. With God, it is not an earthly likeness because God is spirit. But it is something deeper.
We on earth,are like a representation of things in heaven. We have an earthly father and earthly children. We have a heavenly Father who calls us his children. Earthly fathers love their children,discipline their children,direct their children just like the heavenly father does. The earthly family is an image of the spiritual family. But I am not my father and he is not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
1 Cor. 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
This verse should tell you everything you need to know. There is ONE GOD. How many? ONE
It even tells you WHO that ONE GOD is,so you can`t be confused. Who does it say that ONE GOD is? THE FATHER.
Now you can deny this verse. You can say it isn`t true. You can change this verse to get it to say what you want it to say. But I will choose to believe what this scripture VERY PLAINLY says rather than you taking several other scruiptures and spinning them to mean something else.
Just to clear it up even more for you. This verse goes on to make a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus. No blurred lines. No needing 5 other verses to understand something. No needing to handpick 5 other verses from 5 different books and spinning them to mean what you want.
This one verse plainly says who God is and who Jesus is. PLAINLY!!!
So I will ask you again. Who does this verse say is the ONE GOD?
All things are not out of Jesus. They are by him BUT NOT OF HIM. There is a difference. If there was not a difference,then no difference would need to be made. If Jesus was the Father then all things would also be out of him and of him.
1+1 does not equal 1. To use your words,your math doesn`t add up.
To use your words again...keep studying!
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,882 posts, read 5,031,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
God the Father is spirit. So he is the Holy Spirit. There aren`t 2 Holy Spirits that are God. Jesus is not the Father. He has the fullness of God living within him,just like we all will. That does not make us the Father. Do you have the spirit of God living within you? If you do,then what does that make you? How many spirits live within you? Jesus has the title of God but he is not the Father. ALL things came out from the Father. The Father did not come out from anything or anybody. Jesus however,came out from the Father. Therefore, he can not also be the Father in the sense that you would like us to believe. He is the exact image of the Father. We too are made in God`s image. But it does not make us the Father. We have a part of God within us. That is what our consciousness is. Where does consciousness come from? What is consciousness..consciousness of who we are,what we are,where we came from? Let us make man in our image! Does that mean God has fingers and toes? NO! We have a consciousness that is like God. We can know,we can understand,we can reason. But we are not God the Father. We are not God almighty himself but he gave us a part of him. Just like your earthly children are not you. But their earthly bodies are an image of you. There is a likeness. A genetic likeness. With God, it is not an earthly likeness because God is spirit. But it is something deeper.
We on earth,are like a representation of things in heaven. We have an earthly father and earthly children. We have a heavenly Father who calls us his children. Earthly fathers love their children,discipline their children,direct their children just like the heavenly father does. The earthly family is an image of the spiritual family. But I am not my father and he is not me.

This verse should tell you everything you need to know. There is ONE GOD. How many? ONE
It even tells you WHO that ONE GOD is,so you can`t be confused. Who does it say that ONE GOD is? THE FATHER.
Now you can deny this verse. You can say it isn`t true. You can change this verse to get it to say what you want it to say. But I will choose to believe what this scripture VERY PLAINLY says rather than you taking several other scruiptures and spinning them to mean something else.
Just to clear it up even more for you. This verse goes on to make a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus. No blurred lines. No needing 5 other verses to understand something. No needing to handpick 5 other verses from 5 different books and spinning them to mean what you want.
This one verse plainly says who God is and who Jesus is. PLAINLY!!!
So I will ask you again. Who does this verse say is the ONE GOD?
All things are not out of Jesus. They are by him BUT NOT OF HIM. There is a difference. If there was not a difference,then no difference would need to be made. If Jesus was the Father then all things would also be out of him and of him.
1+1 does not equal 1. To use your words,your math doesn`t add up.
To use your words again...keep studying!
I still can't rep you but....GREAT JOB my little buddy!!!
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:11 PM
 
696 posts, read 754,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I believe the bible teaches that God is the author of the love. Yet you state that someone must love Christ in order to be one with God. That is called religion. Including some who believe the same and excluding those who don't. If you agree that God is not for rent then you must agree that God is God of all Gods.. So are you saying that someone in a remote part of the world calls the only God they know BAllah and suddenly they are not worshiping the same God, etc..

The what is love to you? I see love as someone who corrects me when Im wrong. You attempt to reason what has failed to be reasoned. Christ came and established the path. There is no "God of Gods". What part of the world is remote to the Lord? While I concede its not over yet, when the ministry ends what is you next line of reasoning? You focus on the word, but fail to see when your truth is built on a lie it is in fact a lie. Your words are a mixture of democracy and spiritualism.

I would not say that Christianity is about faith but more about the profession of faith. The actions, the prayers, the baptism... all professions of supposed faith in Christ but your actions in excluding those who disagree with you about God is not showing love of Christ... so don't you fall into the very category you are condemning?

I am condemning? What is the difference between faith and a profession of faith. I can even go any farther as Ill leave it to you to seperate the two. I exclude nothing and view everything, but the Bible says many will claim Him and He will not know them.

Good deeds = Reward... all the major religions LOL

Killing children in fire is a good reward. Beating women with sticks for showing a wrist is reward. The list goes on. What does this mean. No where in Christ can good deeds equal reward lest any man boast. So the correct response is HUH?

Websters definition of religion:
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

What is the wisdom of man that God should take note? Or perhaps there is a library of multiple religons in heaven.

That covers pretty much all religions.

There are spiritual truths and moral guidelines in every organized religion. One is no better than the other. I think Christianity fails in that the focus is on Christ rather than God when Christ clearly taught that God is the one you pray to, worship, have a relationship... but that is just my opinion, and I am perfectly content to accept yours even though I disagree with it.
I can accept your view as yours however postmodern it is. However, how can you pray to God without the intercessor in Christ? Or are your greater than the prophets who fell to the knees and could only rise thru the strength of God to their feet. To imply Christianity fails implies failure in Christ of which then why are you here? Even the Jews said Gods way was not just even when God proved otherwise.

Last edited by Aschultz73; 01-08-2010 at 02:12 PM.. Reason: I made a mistake in quoting some of replys are in quote sorry.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,220,534 times
Reputation: 1685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
because they are 3 persons, co-eternal....You don't believe the Holy Spirit is God as well?
God is spirit. God is Holy. God/Holy spirit same entity. Not 2 people in a Godhead but the same entity. You know like I call my husband Jon, Jonathan, Husband... same guy.

Jesus is flesh... if you separate the flesh when he is on earth why then is he still flesh in heaven if he is God.. wouldn't they merge to form one again? So if you think that there are three persons to God manifest in different locations at different times but all still God then in God's dwelling place (heaven) surely they are just one entity right?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit of God is somehow separate from God or the same entity?

In other words, when in heaven do all three of your Godhead parts become one God or do they remain three? Do you have three guys sitting around a table deciding the ways of the world or is it just one?
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