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Old 01-08-2010, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
God the Father is spirit. So he is the Holy Spirit. There aren`t 2 Holy Spirits that are God. Jesus is not the Father. He has the fullness of God living within him,just like we all will. That does not make us the Father. Do you have the spirit of God living within you? If you do,then what does that make you? How many spirits live within you? Jesus has the title of God but he is not the Father. ALL things came out from the Father. The Father did not come out from anything or anybody. Jesus however,came out from the Father. Therefore, he can not also be the Father in the sense that you would like us to believe. He is the exact image of the Father. We too are made in God`s image. But it does not make us the Father. We have a part of God within us. That is what our consciousness is. Where does consciousness come from? What is consciousness..consciousness of who we are...........
Seriously if you are going to criticize the Trinity make sure you study up on what you are criticizing....of course Jesus isn't the Father, He's God the Son as the Father is God the Father and the 3rd person is God the Holy Spirit. Way too many strawmans.
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,843,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Of course I wouldn't give you one liners. If I ask you to perform this, not for me, but for the thousands of people that visit this forum, so that they too can understand how you come to these conclusions, is pertinent, I would expect you and everyone else to expect the same for me, as I have done, and will do again.

I will address each and every point you make, detailed and in comparison with the scripture, but I do expect you and others to do the same.

Saying Christ is not God, with one or two verses taken out of their context is damaging to the overall message of the verses in questions, and must be meticulously aligned with the language as well, so that no false doctrines arise out of it. If you think the early church fathers erred in their analysis of Christ's deity, then you must prove, in like manner, with a detailed analysis of why He isn't, in order to do justice to the faith in its entirety and your reputation as a skilled interpretor. Otherwise, you are just another false teacher pushing your paradigm based on zero exegesis.
Great but as you know I would have a hard time producing evidence that a dog is not a cat ...too unless as rebuttal right?

So why don't you bring up a point that speaks to you as clearly Jesus is God and I will counter. My premise that Jesus is not God is a rebuttal to Jesus being called God.
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,843,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The entire Chrtistian church thinks otherwise, for reasons being that it was.



I agree completely. Formal debate guidleines to be in place, maybe even ask the mods to "sticky it" so it doesn't get lost. We can start another thread if you like, but I expect you to take some time in this, because this is very important, not just for you, but for everyone that comes here.

Say 4000 words to state your case and we will go from there?
Yikes! would anyone have time to rebut 4000 words or read it through? I have a life outside of this forum too.. how about we take it verse by verse within context or whatever you please. I haven't the time to answer in great length like that and I don't think it would be fair to the readers to have to read through both sides like that. Unless, of course we go through a blog or something of that nature.

Let me know what you think.
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:29 PM
 
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(Philippians 2:5-8) (NASB) Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I can accept your view as yours however postmodern it is. However, how can you pray to God without the intercessor in Christ? Or are your greater than the prophets who fell to the knees and could only rise thru the strength of God to their feet. To imply Christianity fails implies failure in Christ of which then why are you here? Even the Jews said Gods way was not just even when God proved otherwise.
Why would you need an intercessor if the new covenant brought about an avenue to know God intimately.

John 16:26-27 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

The father is the one you pray to. Jesus does not pray to the father for you. The father himself loves you, and Jesus reiterates this by teaching us to pray to the father in Matt. 6, Luke 11..all directed toward the father. If Jesus meant for you to pray to him why did he teach to pray to the One true God of Israel.. God your Father and his Father?
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Why would you need an intercessor if the new covenant brought about an avenue to know God intimately.
What avenue?
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Old 01-08-2010, 04:02 PM
 
696 posts, read 728,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Why would you need an intercessor if the new covenant brought about an avenue to know God intimately.

John 16:26-27 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

The father is the one you pray to. Jesus does not pray to the father for you. The father himself loves you, and Jesus reiterates this by teaching us to pray to the father in Matt. 6, Luke 11..all directed toward the father. If Jesus meant for you to pray to him why did he teach to pray to the One true God of Israel.. God your Father and his Father?
So Jesus was incorrect in stating "No one comes to the father, but thru me?" Far be it from me, but now Christ is a liar as once a lie can be attributed to him, nothing else he said can be given any credence. So now you can not use him to state your position. Or was Christ failable? If so again point to where it is. You can simply chose an easy scripture or accept Jesus Christ as the chief protagonist of the 66 chapters as he rightly is. Not simply a footnote in 4 chapters.

But if Christ is the protagonist then what did he say? "Without the blood and flesh of Christ you can not be saved." Without Christ you can not pray to God, this is the intercessor. It was why protestants lament catholics praying to Saints or Mary. It is thru Christ we pray as when we end "In the name of Jesus, Amen". Let no man deny Christ or attribute any less his achievement on the cross. Let God's Word read true and all false scripture as false.
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:52 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,553,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Seriously if you are going to criticize the Trinity make sure you study up on what you are criticizing....of course Jesus isn't the Father, He's God the Son as the Father is God the Father and the 3rd person is God the Holy Spirit. Way too many strawmans.
There you go with your usually strawman line. Perhaps you are the one who should study up. Ask a lot of fundamentalist christians on here if they think Jesus and the Father are one and the same person. I lived the fundamantilist christian life for 40 years. I`ve talked with a lot of church folk,pastors,preachers etc. Why do you think the verse I and the Father are one is repeated so much on here? Why do you think before Abraham was I am gets repeated so much on here? Since you don`t seem to know,let me tell you. Because people think the Father and Jesus are the same person. They say there is only one God but he (meaning one) represents himself (one) in three different entities. That`s how they get around there being one God.
So try another word besides strawman because it isn`t a strawman.
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Old 01-08-2010, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,001,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I have never heard the bible describe Him as "Brother Jesus"
It does.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Even if it wasn't in the bible.... the Holy Spirit testifies it when one asks.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
What avenue?
Christ's teachings.. the gospel.
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