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Old 01-08-2010, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,405,403 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
So Jesus was incorrect in stating "No one comes to the father, but thru me?" Far be it from me, but now Christ is a liar as once a lie can be attributed to him, nothing else he said can be given any credence. So now you can not use him to state your position. Or was Christ failable? If so again point to where it is. You can simply chose an easy scripture or accept Jesus Christ as the chief protagonist of the 66 chapters as he rightly is. Not simply a footnote in 4 chapters.

But if Christ is the protagonist then what did he say? "Without the blood and flesh of Christ you can not be saved." Without Christ you can not pray to God, this is the intercessor. It was why protestants lament catholics praying to Saints or Mary. It is thru Christ we pray as when we end "In the name of Jesus, Amen". Let no man deny Christ or attribute any less his achievement on the cross. Let God's Word read true and all false scripture as false.
Let me reiterate that the purpose of bringing in the new covenant is:

Hebrews 9:14-15 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

The gospel is about our consciences not what God needed. God needs nothing, it is man who need cleansing of the conscience.

Hebrews 10:15-18 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.
Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”c
And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Doesn't sound like we need an intercessor after the new covenant is in effect because the laws of God are written in our hearts and minds.

Why then do you suppose that Christ taught to pray to God yet you pray to Jesus (if in fact you do)??
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Old 01-09-2010, 01:14 AM
 
696 posts, read 479,543 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Let me reiterate that the purpose of bringing in the new covenant is:

Hebrews 9:14-15 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

The gospel is about our consciences not what God needed. God needs nothing, it is man who need cleansing of the conscience.

Hebrews 10:15-18 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.
Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”c
And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Doesn't sound like we need an intercessor after the new covenant is in effect because the laws of God are written in our hearts and minds.

Why then do you suppose that Christ taught to pray to God yet you pray to Jesus (if in fact you do)??
I usually avoid definitions in a post, but here you go...

[SIZE=3]in·ter·ces·sion[/SIZE] (ntr-sshn)
n. 1. Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another.
2. Mediation in a dispute.

Notice the meaning of the word. Notice your very own quote, Christ the mediator. Did you not know that when you pray to God it is thru Christ. Your sins are not washed away simply that he died, but that he continually covers your inequity with his blood. Notice the reference to the blood of Christ. When you approach the Throne of God he is there justifing your approach thru his works. He paid your debt. You in no way could do that. Again as my previous post states and is justified in your quotes, one can not approach God without Christ. The Second Adam. Again the protagonist of the whole Bible. He was there in the beginning and in the end. Without him no one can approach God.

Truthfully there is no thought you have expressed that has not been attempted since Adam pointed to Eve as responsible for the failure of Adam. Man needs the intercesor and without him man is nothing.
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Old 01-09-2010, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,405,403 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I usually avoid definitions in a post, but here you go...

[SIZE=3]in·ter·ces·sion[/SIZE] (ntr-sshn)
n. 1. Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another.
2. Mediation in a dispute.

Notice the meaning of the word. Notice your very own quote, Christ the mediator. Did you not know that when you pray to God it is thru Christ. Your sins are not washed away simply that he died, but that he continually covers your inequity with his blood. Notice the reference to the blood of Christ. When you approach the Throne of God he is there justifing your approach thru his works. He paid your debt. You in no way could do that. Again as my previous post states and is justified in your quotes, one can not approach God without Christ. The Second Adam. Again the protagonist of the whole Bible. He was there in the beginning and in the end. Without him no one can approach God.

Truthfully there is no thought you have expressed that has not been attempted since Adam pointed to Eve as responsible for the failure of Adam. Man needs the intercesor and without him man is nothing.
You are wrong.. that is what the Israelites had in their High Priest. Perhaps you missed that Jesus stated "it is finished."

Are you at odds/in dispute with God?

The New Covenant is in effect wouldn't you say?

Heb. 8:11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. (Jer. 31:34)

What need is there for an intercessor if you know someone. Think of Christ as the mediator and you see that if the enmity between man and God was eliminated (resulting in salvation) then there is no need for a mediator.

And you didn't address that Jesus taught men to pray to God not to him. In Jesus' name ask for things... pray to God. Jesus doesn't pray on our behalf as stated in that verse from the previous post.. so what verse tells you that you should pray to Christ?
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Old 01-09-2010, 02:23 PM
 
696 posts, read 479,543 times
Reputation: 66
What you still fail to understand is that when you pray to God two things are discerned. One are you praying in the Blood of the Lamb or two are you not? Your missing the whole point. You are using Scripture to justify your belief more than Truth.

You are correct The Lord said it is finished. He paid your price, but to assert he has completely stopped doing anything is man made error at best and scriptural falicy at worst. The Lord refered to the task set before him on Earth.

Yet, when man prays let them know that Christ stands with them before God. When God sees the one who prays he does not see the sin, but the Blood of Christ. He tesifies that they are His. This was never more fulfilled in that Christ stated "Of all the you gave me, I have not lost one."

What you are doing is not a matter of denomination versus denomination. Not it is a matter of doctrine versus doctrine. It is a matter that strikes to the core of it's being. If Christ be discounted than he is not in Truth. In essence it is not even remotely Christian and borders on the worldly verses the eternal. Far be it from me to speak such words, but again as correctly stated your view is nothing new under the sun. Man has long attempted to reconcile your words and the majority accept it. The minority or the remnant never will.

Also of note the New Covenant is more a matter of man attempting to seperate what is inseperable. View the Covenant as a whole in that God promised Eve her seed was to defeat the serpent. You act as if the New Convenant was something that started 2010 years ago. If God is not eternal than perhaps this could never be more true. Yet the truth of the Covenant with God and man is it began from the time Adam was first created. To imply anything less is scriptural suicide.

Take note than even the Jews did not differentiate between verses in the books of the Old Testament. When the Bible came into form this is when the Jews and Christians really started the ball rolling. As is correctly asserted each book stands, but thru each book Eternity is established. While man continued to break the Covenant God has never failed in it. His Covenant with man has been restablished thru Christ, but far be it from anyone to claim God adapted with something new. The Covenant of God has been thru the dawn of time.
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Old 01-09-2010, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,405,403 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
What you still fail to understand is that when you pray to God two things are discerned. One are you praying in the Blood of the Lamb or two are you not? Your missing the whole point. You are using Scripture to justify your belief more than Truth.
Again you are under the assumption that God NEEDED a mediator.. God needs nothing.. Man required a mediator not God. From God's perspective according to truth.. no sacrifice is as great as his mercy. God abhorred sacrifices. It was for man's own conscience that this was all done.

Quote:
You are correct The Lord said it is finished. He paid your price, but to assert he has completely stopped doing anything is man made error at best and scriptural falicy at worst. The Lord refered to the task set before him on Earth.
Do you need to crucify Christ every time someone needs salvation or do really believe it is finished?

Quote:
Yet, when man prays let them know that Christ stands with them before God. When God sees the one who prays he does not see the sin, but the Blood of Christ. He tesifies that they are His. This was never more fulfilled in that Christ stated "Of all the you gave me, I have not lost one."

What you are doing is not a matter of denomination versus denomination. Not it is a matter of doctrine versus doctrine. It is a matter that strikes to the core of it's being. If Christ be discounted than he is not in Truth. In essence it is not even remotely Christian and borders on the worldly verses the eternal. Far be it from me to speak such words, but again as correctly stated your view is nothing new under the sun. Man has long attempted to reconcile your words and the majority accept it. The minority or the remnant never will.

Also of note the New Covenant is more a matter of man attempting to seperate what is inseperable. View the Covenant as a whole in that God promised Eve her seed was to defeat the serpent. You act as if the New Convenant was something that started 2010 years ago. If God is not eternal than perhaps this could never be more true. Yet the truth of the Covenant with God and man is it began from the time Adam was first created. To imply anything less is scriptural suicide.

Take note than even the Jews did not differentiate between verses in the books of the Old Testament. When the Bible came into form this is when the Jews and Christians really started the ball rolling. As is correctly asserted each book stands, but thru each book Eternity is established. While man continued to break the Covenant God has never failed in it. His Covenant with man has been restablished thru Christ, but far be it from anyone to claim God adapted with something new. The Covenant of God has been thru the dawn of time.
Exactly.. the covenant was from the beginning and man created sacrifices to appease God when it wasn't neccessary. Just like what you are doing here by trying to state that God NEEDS Christ to be God for the plan to work! Before Christ men were saved by the grace of God. It is man's perception of God that was in error. Christ finished his work on earth which was to show the real attributes of God: Love, mercy, longsuffering..etc.

Do you believe that Jesus finished his work or not? Do you really think God needed a sacrifice of God in order to dole out mercy to men?

Perhaps I should explain to you what the idea of spiritually clean and spiritually dirty is. Man when he commits sin receives the immediate consequence of a guilty conscience.

The saving grace and forgiveness of sins whether by sacrifice of animals or in repentance, is the very act of cleaning your conscience.

Think of it like a computer. When you first get the computer it is shiny, new, fast... but then as you go online, save and delete files, install and uninstall programs, etc.. the computer starts to run slower, freeze more... that is like a "dirty conscience" it is cluttered with so much guilt that a weight is always there on the heart.

There is a war raging between the flesh and the spirit.. However if you have a clean conscience there is no clutter, you remain able to see, discern, relate to people with love...

That is the way of the gospel. God wants to cleanse men's minds and hearts so they can see a better path to follow, a better way to live.

So far that theme has all but been forgotten in society because (I believe) the church focusses on Jesus being God more than the message (The Word of God) he brought to us.
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Old 01-09-2010, 06:58 PM
 
21,946 posts, read 9,769,441 times
Reputation: 3711
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Again you are under the assumption that God NEEDED a mediator.. God needs nothing.. Man required a mediator not God. From God's perspective according to truth.. no sacrifice is as great as his mercy. God abhorred sacrifices. It was for man's own conscience that this was all done.

Do you need to crucify Christ every time someone needs salvation or do really believe it is finished?

Exactly.. the covenant was from the beginning and man created sacrifices to appease God when it wasn't neccessary. Just like what you are doing here by trying to state that God NEEDS Christ to be God for the plan to work! Before Christ men were saved by the grace of God. It is man's perception of God that was in error. Christ finished his work on earth which was to show the real attributes of God: Love, mercy, longsuffering..etc.

Do you believe that Jesus finished his work or not? Do you really think God needed a sacrifice of God in order to dole out mercy to men?

Perhaps I should explain to you what the idea of spiritually clean and spiritually dirty is. Man when he commits sin receives the immediate consequence of a guilty conscience.

The saving grace and forgiveness of sins whether by sacrifice of animals or in repentance, is the very act of cleaning your conscience.

Think of it like a computer. When you first get the computer it is shiny, new, fast... but then as you go online, save and delete files, install and uninstall programs, etc.. the computer starts to run slower, freeze more... that is like a "dirty conscience" it is cluttered with so much guilt that a weight is always there on the heart.

There is a war raging between the flesh and the spirit.. However if you have a clean conscience there is no clutter, you remain able to see, discern, relate to people with love...

That is the way of the gospel. God wants to cleanse men's minds and hearts so they can see a better path to follow, a better way to live.

So far that theme has all but been forgotten in society because (I believe) the church focusses on Jesus being God more than the message (The Word of God) he brought to us.
Still can't rep you.
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Old 01-09-2010, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 7,988,470 times
Reputation: 1049
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Again you are under the assumption that God NEEDED a mediator.. God needs nothing.. Man required a mediator not God. From God's perspective according to truth.. no sacrifice is as great as his mercy. God abhorred sacrifices. It was for man's own conscience that this was all done.

Do you need to crucify Christ every time someone needs salvation or do really believe it is finished?

Exactly.. the covenant was from the beginning and man created sacrifices to appease God when it wasn't neccessary. Just like what you are doing here by trying to state that God NEEDS Christ to be God for the plan to work! Before Christ men were saved by the grace of God. It is man's perception of God that was in error. Christ finished his work on earth which was to show the real attributes of God: Love, mercy, longsuffering..etc.

Do you believe that Jesus finished his work or not? Do you really think God needed a sacrifice of God in order to dole out mercy to men?

Perhaps I should explain to you what the idea of spiritually clean and spiritually dirty is. Man when he commits sin receives the immediate consequence of a guilty conscience.

The saving grace and forgiveness of sins whether by sacrifice of animals or in repentance, is the very act of cleaning your conscience.

Think of it like a computer. When you first get the computer it is shiny, new, fast... but then as you go online, save and delete files, install and uninstall programs, etc.. the computer starts to run slower, freeze more... that is like a "dirty conscience" it is cluttered with so much guilt that a weight is always there on the heart.

There is a war raging between the flesh and the spirit.. However if you have a clean conscience there is no clutter, you remain able to see, discern, relate to people with love...

That is the way of the gospel. God wants to cleanse men's minds and hearts so they can see a better path to follow, a better way to live.

So far that theme has all but been forgotten in society because (I believe) the church focusses on Jesus being God more than the message (The Word of God) he brought to us.

Love to read your posts.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,405,403 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Still can't rep you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post

Love to read your posts.

godspeed,

freedom

Thank you both! I love to read your posts as well... I don't really know where it comes from sometimes but I read it over and it is edifying.

Thanks again for the kind words.
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Old 01-10-2010, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 581,171 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Thank you both! I love to read your posts as well... I don't really know where it comes from sometimes but I read it over and it is edifying.

Thanks again for the kind words.

Kat.....you are doing an amazing job at explaining the truth about Jesus
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:24 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 3,121,855 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Again you are under the assumption that God NEEDED a mediator.. God needs nothing.. Man required a mediator not God. From God's perspective according to truth.. no sacrifice is as great as his mercy. God abhorred sacrifices. It was for man's own conscience that this was all done.

Do you need to crucify Christ every time someone needs salvation or do really believe it is finished?

Exactly.. the covenant was from the beginning and man created sacrifices to appease God when it wasn't neccessary. Just like what you are doing here by trying to state that God NEEDS Christ to be God for the plan to work! Before Christ men were saved by the grace of God. It is man's perception of God that was in error. Christ finished his work on earth which was to show the real attributes of God: Love, mercy, longsuffering..etc.

Do you believe that Jesus finished his work or not? Do you really think God needed a sacrifice of God in order to dole out mercy to men?

Perhaps I should explain to you what the idea of spiritually clean and spiritually dirty is. Man when he commits sin receives the immediate consequence of a guilty conscience.

The saving grace and forgiveness of sins whether by sacrifice of animals or in repentance, is the very act of cleaning your conscience.

Think of it like a computer. When you first get the computer it is shiny, new, fast... but then as you go online, save and delete files, install and uninstall programs, etc.. the computer starts to run slower, freeze more... that is like a "dirty conscience" it is cluttered with so much guilt that a weight is always there on the heart.

There is a war raging between the flesh and the spirit.. However if you have a clean conscience there is no clutter, you remain able to see, discern, relate to people with love...

That is the way of the gospel. God wants to cleanse men's minds and hearts so they can see a better path to follow, a better way to live.

So far that theme has all but been forgotten in society because (I believe) the church focusses on Jesus being God more than the message (The Word of God) he brought to us.
The blind will not acknowledge this. They will focus on the flesh in lieu of the spirit when the spirit is the real. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will know that this is Truth.

Awesome post!!
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