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Old 12-27-2009, 01:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Its funny that every word or phrase associated with God or punishment is translated as eternity or forever.

They say aionios means forever even though it is applied(in the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation of the old testament which existed at the time of Christ) to things that obviously were not forever. And it is not enough, they say that though aionios means for ever by itself, the phrase "ton aiona tou aionos" is even more that forever ... or whatever. If aionios means foreever, then what would be the puspose of saying "ton aiona tou aionos"?


To any halfway intelligent person with a mind open to critical thinking outside of traditional indoctrination, it should be obvious that there is something going on with the word Aion and its derivatives in the bible that many people either do not understand or simply refuse to accept. Obviously all is not right in fundamentalist land ...
As God's throne is forever so too is the lake of fire using the exact same phrase shown to be eternal. Readers may refer back to post #28 this thread.

Satanic deception is strong in this age, and many are deceived. Universalists both are deceived and deceive others. God's judgment is not to be dismissed. God makes it clear that unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire. I can only post the facts. I can't give anyone the sense to understand the facts.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:53 PM
 
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Its a wonder that Christianity can be called "good news". Humans suffering endlessly sounds like bad news to me. Only an Orwellian mind can call this religion "good news". Its a cynical abuse of language.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:01 PM
 
34,480 posts, read 22,152,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflight View Post
Its a wonder that Christianity can be called "good news". Humans suffering endlessly sounds like bad news to me. Only an Orwellian mind can call this religion "good news". Its a cynical abuse of language.
Amen. It is even more ironic that ALL the characteristics used to describe Satan are precisely the ones that are rationalized away as those of their God . . . DESPITE the clear and unambiguous example and teachings of Jesus who they claim to follow. Even more ironinc . . . they continue to look for the deceptions of this Satan without recognizing his existing influence on their current doctrine.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As God's throne is forever so too is the lake of fire using the exact same phrase shown to be eternal. Readers may refer back to post #28 this thread.

Satanic deception is strong in this age, and many are deceived. Universalists both are deceived and deceive others. God's judgment is not to be dismissed. God makes it clear that unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire. I can only post the facts. I can't give anyone the sense to understand the facts.
You certainly post your understanding of the facts as they are. Its just that it appears to me that your understanding is flawed.

The simple and terrible belief of most fundamental Christians is that not only is it okay and Good to cause people to suffer for suffering sake alone, but that it is necessary and gives God glory that most people should suffer for ever.

This teaching is an abomination ...





a⋅bom⋅i⋅na⋅tion


[uh-bom-uh-ney-shuhn]

–noun

1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.

2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.

3. a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.: Spitting in public is an abomination.






This teaching says that God is himself abominable ...
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You certainly post your understanding of the facts as they are. Its just that it appears to me that your understanding is flawed.

The simple and terrible belief of most fundamental Christians is that not only is it okay and Good to cause people to suffer for suffering sake alone, but that it is necessary and gives God glory that most people should suffer for ever.

This teaching is an abomination ...





a⋅bom⋅i⋅na⋅tion


[uh-bom-uh-ney-shuhn]

–noun

1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.

2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.

3. a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.: Spitting in public is an abomination.






This teaching says that God is himself abominable ...
No. It comes down to this. God is infinitely holy. Infinitely Just and righteous. He is perfect in all His ways and He is eternal. He cannot have anything to do with sin. He cannot enter into a relationship with His creatures who have anything less than His own perfect righteousness. He can not and will not compromise His perfection in any way, in order to enter into such a relationship. The demands of His holy nature MUST be satisified before He can allow man into His eternal presence. And therefore, because He does desire that all men be saved, He provided the means by which man Can be saved. That way is the Cross. And the Cross is the only way that God could provide salvation for man without compromising who and what He is. God makes the offer of salvation through faith in Christ. But all who reject the offer of salvation must spend eternity separated from God. They do so by their own free will. God made the ultimate sacrifice in sending Christ into the world to die for the sins of the world. He did all that He could to bring man back into a relationship with Him. But if any member of the human race rejects the work of Christ on the Cross, then The righteousness of God must direct His justice to condemn that person.

A failure or inability to understand the requirements of a just and holy and infinitely perfect God, does not negate the reality of His essence. God's love does not overrule His justice. He must be true to who and what He is. The Bible is abundantly clear on the matter of the eternal destiny of the unbeliever. And those who would try to superimpose their notions of justice on God are without excuse.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:20 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,719,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. It comes down to this. God is infinitely holy. Infinitely Just and righteous. He is perfect in all His ways and He is eternal. He cannot have anything to do with sin. He cannot enter into a relationship with His creatures who have anything less than His own perfect righteousness. He can not and will not compromise His perfection in any way, in order to enter into such a relationship. The demands of His holy nature MUST be satisified before He can allow man into His eternal presence. And therefore, because He does desire that all men be saved, He provided the means by which man Can be saved. That way is the Cross. And the Cross is the only way that God could provide salvation for man without compromising who and what He is. God makes the offer of salvation through faith in Christ. But all who reject the offer of salvation must spend eternity separated from God. They do so by their own free will. God made the ultimate sacrifice in sending Christ into the world to die for the sins of the world. He did all that He could to bring man back into a relationship with Him. But if any member of the human race rejects the work of Christ on the Cross, then The righteousness of God must direct His justice to condemn that person.

A failure or inability to understand the requirements of a just and holy and infinitely perfect God, does not negate the reality of His essence. God's love does not overrule His justice. He must be true to who and what He is. The Bible is abundantly clear on the matter of the eternal destiny of the unbeliever. And those who would try to superimpose their notions of justice on God are without excuse.
Rhetoric ... Most of this is completely unscriptural.


Basically what you are saying is that because God is infinitely holy, and infinitely just, and infinitely righteous, that means most of the people he created who have ever lived or will ever live must suffer the most terrible infinite suffering for everlasting.

How does infinite holiness and infinite righteousness translate into infinite suffering for countless beings? And why cant you see that something is wrong with this picture?

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-27-2009 at 03:30 PM..
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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How can a sinner, without the tabernacle made without hands, given a white robe, that is covering his soul, in Christ's blood, get even near God?

You must first believe, then you can come to Him and have communion.

God is the same in the OT, as He is in the NT, merciful and just, and the denial and rejection of His Son, will only bring His wrath, not His Grace and Love. This is what the scripture teaches.
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Man has free will.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.'

Again the word ἐάν - in case, if - denoting a choice.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

God is wholly responsible for salvation. God forgives us, engrafts us into Christ, regenerates us, and moves us through the power of the Holy Spirit.
However this is looking at things from God's perspective. There is another account, that looks at things from a human perspective. God normally operates through historical causes. These various influences shape our character and our goals. However we still make decisions, for which we are properly held responsible.

The balance of responsibility is somewhat different with those who are God's children and those who are not. With those who are saved, God operates in a personal way, through the presence of the Holy Spirit and our union with Christ. While we make responsible choices, the basic decision to save us is God's. There is no equivalent for those who reject God. While their rejection is part of an overall history for which God is responsible, God does not take specific actions to make them reject him, as he takes actions to redeem his children.

Predestination means that ultimately God is responsible for who is saved. While God's grace is offered to everyone, only those who he regenerates are able to take advantage of it. So how can you honestly say to someone: "Have faith, repent of your sins, and you will be saved" when you don't know whether God has chosen him or not?

First, we have an explicit authorization from Jesus to preach to everyone.
So there is no question that we are permitted to offer salvation to everyone. Indeed we are required to do so.

Second, when preaching the Gospel it is not necessary to tell each individual that God has definitely chosen them. All that we need to say is that Christ has died for his people, and that if the person repents of his sins and responds in faith, he will be saved.

The fact that God is responsible for the overall story does not change the fact that people are saved through faith and repentance. Yes, God knows who will be saved, and at one level he is responsible for it. He works in us to regenerate us. But God commonly works through human agents, and the result of his work is human response and change. It is a privilege to be invited to participate in God's work of regeneration.

In the Gospel according to John, Jesus uses a metaphor that may be helpful here. Several times he speaks of himself as a shepherd calling his sheep. But it's clear that not everyone belongs to his flock. His sheep recognize his voice. Others do not. When we preach the Gospel, we are calling in Jesus' name. Those who are Jesus' sheep will respond. We don't need to know in advance who they are, or how many they are. We can hope for everyone.

In fact I think it can cause problems if we assume too much responsibility for the salvation of others. In I Cor 3:6-7, Paul discusses a similar issue. He points out that he simply sows seeds. God makes them grow. If we assume that we are responsible for saving people, we may be led into using overly emotional or coercive approaches. These can lead to the appearance of success, but their long-range effect is questionable.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 12-27-2009 at 04:06 PM.. Reason: added and typos
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:05 PM
 
17,953 posts, read 13,655,364 times
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Rhetoric ... Most of this is completely unscriptural.
And there is the fallacy of universalism. It denies the Holiness of God and presumes God to be a doting grandfatherly type who will overlook sin and welcome into His presence all who have trangressed against Him. But what does the Bible say about His holiness?

Revelation 4:8 And the four living creatures, each one of them havng six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, ''HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is the LORD God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.''

Exodus 15:11 ''Who is like Thee among the gods. O LORD? Who is like Thee, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praise, working wonders?

1 Samuel 2:2 ''There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides Thee, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 6:2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3) and one called out to another and said, ''HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.''

1 Peter 1:15-16 but lke the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16) because it is written, ''You shall be Holy , for I AM HOLY.''

I'll remind readers to refer to post #28 concerning both the eternal reign of Christ on His throne, and the eternal nature of the lake of fire. The same phrase is used for both.

Universalists against all reason deny what is so clearly taught in the Scriptures. But the word of God says what it says. Universalism is a Satanic attempt to get people to not fear God's judgment. It is an attempt to prevent people from making the most important decision they will ever make in their life.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

All the Scriptures speak against the heresy of universalism.
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:20 PM
Status: "Following the Lamb" (set 11 days ago)
 
4,141 posts, read 4,059,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflight View Post
Its a wonder that Christianity can be called "good news". Humans suffering endlessly sounds like bad news to me. Only an Orwellian mind can call this religion "good news". Its a cynical abuse of language.
It's great news for those who obey, and indeed it's bad news for sinners.

Proverbs 1
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
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