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Old 12-29-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Sciotamicks, in other words, based upon all the lack of evidence, no eye saw Jesus return and come out of Zion and save all Israel. No, not even one person saw this. Yet you use peripheral statements as if they prove they saw Christ when, in fact, they say nothing of the sort.
Again....what is the Greek word in question here in regards to "seeing"?
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Again....what is the Greek word in question here in regards to "seeing"?
Jesus will not come again as some figment of someone's imagination. When they see Him it will be with the eyes such as you are using to read this post.

What part of "complement of the nations" do you not understand? (Romans 11:25,26)
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No it doesn't say that. BUT he was speaking to Peter about the manner of death he would have yet John is to remain until... some event happens... what then do you suggest is the event the Peter dies before and John after?
John did see the kingdom before he died . . . in spirit . . . he was taken into the future and saw the 1000 year kingdom and the new earth kingdom run from New Jerusalem.




Quote:
Yet the gospels state:
Mark 4:22 "For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light. (Luke 8 & 12, Matt. 10)
So where do you get this information that Paul knew something that the disciples did not?
That's right. That is why God gave to Paul to know the secret and reveal it to them to know that Israel was set aside until the complement of the nations enters.
According to Daniel's 70 weeks, the 70th week was about to break upon them with 3 1/2 years of anti-christ treating them well then 3 1/2 years of persecution. The secret given to Paul put the 70th week on hold. It truly was "near" and "at hand."



Quote:
Revelation was written specifically for: which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” (1:11)

Do those names of churches mean anything to us now?

Revelation is about the past, present, and future:
“Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. (1:19)

John and the churches future not 2000 years future!

Soon, quickly.. write to specific churches... the book was meant to be read by the churches that would be affected by this event... not 2000 years later..
Those churches are in the future to which John, in spirit, went.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,951,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Jesus will not come again as some figment of someone's imagination. When they see Him it will be with the eyes such as you are using to read this post.

What part of "complement of the nations" do you not understand? (Romans 11:25,26)
I understand it fully Eusebius, just not the way your futurist galsses see it. I see it already fulfilled in Christ.

And you still haven't dealt with optanomai yet? Why is that so?
If I was to read this post with my eyes, I would not, writing in the language John, Jesus, Paul and many others wrote, use optanomai, but another word I have already presented with in examples to denote actually, visually seing with the naked eye.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

Those churches are in the future to which John, in spirit, went.
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Old 12-29-2009, 01:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I understand it fully Eusebius, just not the way your futurist galsses see it. I see it already fulfilled in Christ.

And you still haven't dealt with optanomai yet? Why is that so?
If I was to read this post with my eyes, I would not, writing in the language John, Jesus, Paul and many others wrote, use optanomai, but another word I have already presented with in examples to denote actually, visually seing with the naked eye.
What specific verse are you refering to in which optanomai is used?
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Old 12-29-2009, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,772,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
John did see the kingdom before he died . . . in spirit . . . he was taken into the future and saw the 1000 year kingdom and the new earth kingdom run from New Jerusalem.
Sorry to gang up on you like this... I hope you can weather it as I do see some inconsistencies in what you are saying.


Here you are using "seeing" figuratively. There is no cause for that as the phrase directed toward Peter about John states: "So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee?" (John 21)

Remain till I come doesn't imply John will live forever as is plainly shown in this passage but it does imply that the coming of the Lord will be in his lifetime. You are saying that Jesus came in all his Glory during that vision? or was Jesus talking about a different type of his coming? There is nothing in the text that shows Jesus talking about another coming in vision to John.

In Matt. 16 it is stated that some standing there would not die until they saw his coming. Are you saying they also had visions or that John was the only one standing there that was alive so he is the only one who had the revelation?

None of that adds up to me. Shouldn't the scriptures be in harmony?


Quote:
That's right. That is why God gave to Paul to know the secret and reveal it to them to know that Israel was set aside until the complement of the nations enters.
According to Daniel's 70 weeks, the 70th week was about to break upon them with 3 1/2 years of anti-christ treating them well then 3 1/2 years of persecution. The secret given to Paul put the 70th week on hold. It truly was "near" and "at hand."
He did reveal the secret right there in the passage.

Without transgression there can be no mercy. God gives mercy to all who sin, including Israel so the Gentiles won't boast. That is what it is saying. I don't know why "this mystery" is not clear to you.

Romans 11: 25-32
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is [or will be] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” [Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9; Jer. 31:33,34]
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The point of the whole discourse is that some are disobedient so that God can have mercy on them. There is no mystery which is not revealed.

Quote:
Those churches are in the future to which John, in spirit, went.
You seriously think that is just a coincidence that there were seven churches located in Asia Minor where John taught and may even have formed them himself... and those seven churches are to exist again in the future?

That makes little sense to me I am afraid...

It is much more likely that those churches are the very same ones present when John was writing this revelation.
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Old 12-29-2009, 01:56 PM
 
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Clarke's Commentary has this on John remaining till I come:

4. Others imagine that our Lord was only now taking Peter aside to speak something to him in private, and that Peter, seeing John following, wished to know whether he should come along with them; and that our Lord’s answer stated that John should remain in that place till Christ and Peter returned to him; and to this meaning of the passage many eminent critics incline. For neatly eighteen hundred years, the greatest men in the world have been puzzled with this passage. It mould appear intolerable in me to attempt to decide, where so many eminent doctors have disagreed, and do still disagree. I rather lean to the fourth opinion. See the conclusion of the Preface to this Gospel.
(end of quote)

As to Romans 9-11 of which Romans 11:25,26 is part of, it was a secret never revealed to anyone until Paul.
The important part is that Christ does not come back until the complement of the nations enters (which has not happened yet.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,772,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Clarke's Commentary has this on John remaining till I come:

4. Others imagine that our Lord was only now taking Peter aside to speak something to him in private, and that Peter, seeing John following, wished to know whether he should come along with them; and that our Lord’s answer stated that John should remain in that place till Christ and Peter returned to him; and to this meaning of the passage many eminent critics incline. For neatly eighteen hundred years, the greatest men in the world have been puzzled with this passage. It mould appear intolerable in me to attempt to decide, where so many eminent doctors have disagreed, and do still disagree. I rather lean to the fourth opinion. See the conclusion of the Preface to this Gospel.
(end of quote)
That is only part of what is happening in that passage. The point is that what happens to Peter is for Peter, and what is to happen to John is for John.. What if I want him to tarry until I come.... Jesus is speaking to them from his resurrected form and you are saying until they walk back to John then during the time Jesus is talking to Peter, John should tarry that long? I don't think that is what this passage implies at all.

In fact it is stated that Jesus meant the manner in which Peter will die.. so therefore when John should tarry (live) longer than Peter. That fourth option makes no sense in light of the rest of the passage.

Quote:
As to Romans 9-11 of which Romans 11:25,26 is part of, it was a secret never revealed to anyone until Paul.
The important part is that Christ does not come back until the complement of the nations enters (which has not happened yet.
I'm afraid the verse and surrounding verses say nothing of the sort. In fact is states "THIS MYSTERY" as in the one he is currently talking about in the text. The mystery is found in what he is speaking about... THIS mystery not some other one.

He is revealing the mystery not creating a new one. You see that there were 144000 in Rev. 20 but you don't see that the fullness is reached at that number? If all said about Jesus is true in the NT, then are you sure that 144000 is not the number of followers he had then? If it is then that number has been reached already, in the first century.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:41 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,179,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That is only part of what is happening in that passage. The point is that what happens to Peter is for Peter, and what is to happen to John is for John.. What if I want him to tarry until I come.... Jesus is speaking to them from his resurrected form and you are saying until they walk back to John then during the time Jesus is talking to Peter, John should tarry that long? I don't think that is what this passage implies at all.

In fact it is stated that Jesus meant the manner in which Peter will die.. so therefore when John should tarry (live) longer than Peter. That fourth option makes no sense in light of the rest of the passage.



I'm afraid the verse and surrounding verses say nothing of the sort. In fact is states "THIS MYSTERY" as in the one he is currently talking about in the text. The mystery is found in what he is speaking about... THIS mystery not some other one.

He is revealing the mystery not creating a new one. You see that there were 144000 in Rev. 20 but you don't see that the fullness is reached at that number? If all said about Jesus is true in the NT, then are you sure that 144000 is not the number of followers he had then? If it is then that number has been reached already, in the first century.
The 144,000 is not what Paul was writing about in Romans 11:25. The 144,000 are not the nations. The complement of the nations are, well, you know, the nations, not Israelites. The 144,000 are Israelites from each tribe of Israel.

The complement of the nations is comprised of all the believers of the nations who complete the body of Christ. Once this occurs then Christ returns and "our of Zion shall come the rescuer" and then all Israel shall be saved.

Paul makes a very distinct distinction between Israel and the nations in Romans 9-11.

As to the secret given to Paul in Romans 11:25,26, please go through the entire Old Testament and try to find that the nations would be blessed APART from Israel. It aint in there.

No one knew Israel would be set aside until the complement of the nations enters. It is not in the O.T. It was a secret hidden from the former eons:

Rom 16:25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian,

The Pauline answer is the right one against Preterism. It is the only one that works.
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