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Old 12-31-2009, 03:45 PM
 
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What about the many false Christs that Christ himself said would come claiming to be him returned? He warned about being deceived by them ... When in the forty year period of time did anyone of any magnitude claim to be Christ returned? Is there any evidence of even one person in that period of time who Claimed to be Christ returned?
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Old 12-31-2009, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
What about the many false Christs that Christ himself said would come claiming to be him returned? He warned about being deceived by them ... When in the forty year period of time did anyone of any magnitude claim to be Christ returned? Is there any evidence of even one person in that period of time who Claimed to be Christ returned?
The return of Christ was paralleled with the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of works....Read 1 Cor 15 again.

Again, the term to "see" in Rev 1:7, has nothing to do with eyeballing an event, but with knowing that the event transpired and what it entailed. Futurist exegesis is poor and misconstrued based on the literal application from 1830 onward. The kingdom is spiritual, not physical.
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Old 12-31-2009, 04:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The return of Christ was paralleled with the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of works....Read 1 Cor 15 again.

Again, the term to "see" in Rev 1:7, has nothing to do with eyeballing an event, but with knowing that the event transpired and what it entailed. Futurist exegesis is poor and misconstrued based on the literal application from 1830 onward. The kingdom is spiritual, not physical.

The word "see" in the Greek there in revelations 1:7 is optanomai, from when we derive the word optic, here it is in conjunction with the word ophthalmos (eye) ... This affirms the literal meaning of the word optanomai in this. It is specified that the eye will see ...


The word optanomai is used 58 times in the new testament ...

Look at these scriptures ...

Matthew 28:7
And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Did they literally see Christ there? yes they did ...


Acts 13:29-31
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.


Did those who had traveled with him literally see him after he was resurrected? Yes they did ...

1 Cor 15:5-7
and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve, afterwards he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain till now, and certain also did fall asleep;
afterwards he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.



Did peter and the twelve literally see him, along with more than five hundred other people? Yes they did ...


The fact that revelations 1:7 says every EYE shall see confirms this is a literal prophecy ... Every Eye shall see him after he descends him even as the apostles and the more than five hundred others saw him before he ascended. It is written that he will return in the same manner he was seen leaving ...


Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.




How is the destruction of the temple in any way to be understood "in like manner" to Christs ascension?
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Old 12-31-2009, 04:48 PM
 
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Also look at what the apostles asked Christ after he had opened their mind to understand the scriptures and just before his ascension ...

Acts 1:6
"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

The apostles were looking forward tot he restoration of the eartly kingdom of Israel to the head of the nations ...

And Paul later wrote about the eventual restoration of Israel as well in Romans 11 ... Paul writes about How God has shut up Israel in unbelief that he might show kindness unto them. He Foretells of a time when, though they were then cut off as was finally manifested in the destruction of the temple in AD 70, they would thereafter finally be grafted back in ...


Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

When did they fall by the edge of the sword? In ad 70 ... When where they disepersed throughout the nations, after ad. 70 ... What time would commence after their dispersion? The times of the gentiles ... What exactly is the times of the gentiles? The times of the gentiles is when Israel is captive and so long as Jerusalem is trodden under the feet of the gentiles. The Hebrews are already returning to their land out of their diaspora, and it is only a matter of time until they will be Given the international right to Jerusalem again. Then and only then will the times of the gentiles will be at an end, no sooner.
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Old 12-31-2009, 04:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
How is the destruction of the temple in any way to be understood "in like manner" to Christs ascension?
How can Christ's ascension in any way be in like manner to him...

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

Revelation 19:11-16 "...Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

You want to say like manner means the same way He left. Well...The descriptions of His return in no way are in like manner to how He left.

Did every eye see Him leave?

Maybe in like manner meant...He left in the clouds and He would return in the clouds.

Do a study on clouds in the OT prophets. Clouds and judgment are synonymous. Clouds = Judgment. AD70 was God's judgment upon those that were persecuting His saints.

It's really not that hard. Futurism overly complicates something very simple.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
When did they fall by the edge of the sword? In ad 70 ... When where they disepersed throughout the nations, after ad. 70 ... What time would commence after their dispersion? The times of the gentiles ... What exactly is the times of the gentiles? The times of the gentiles is when Israel is captive and so long as Jerusalem is trodden under the feet of the gentiles. The Hebrews are already returning to their land out of their diaspora, and it is only a matter of time until they will be Given the international right to Jerusalem again. Then and only then will the times of the gentiles will be at an end, no sooner.
Have you not read "The Jewish Wars?"

Upwards of 1.1 million Jews fell by the edge of the sword. Those that were left were taken captive and sold off into slavery into all the world. There were so many Jewish slaves that they were of no value and couldn't even be sold.

Revelation 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Jerusalem was trodden underfoot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled which Revelation 11 tells us was a 42 month period. Which history tells us happened. The Gentile siege lasted for EXACTLY 42 months as Revelation 11 said it would.

Is there anything in the scriptures that is coincidence? I think not.

History and the fulfillment of Jesus words regarding the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and the destruction of the ministration of death that was persecuting the saints is not on the side of futurism.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Shortly....2000+ years in the future? LOL
Rom 16:20 Now the God of peace will be crushing Satan under your feet swiftly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you!

When it happens it will be very swift.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by psychohmike View Post
How can Christ's ascension in any way be in like manner to him...

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

Revelation 19:11-16 "...Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

You want to say like manner means the same way He left. Well...The descriptions of His return in no way are in like manner to how He left.

Did every eye see Him leave?

Maybe in like manner meant...He left in the clouds and He would return in the clouds.

Do a study on clouds in the OT prophets. Clouds and judgment are synonymous. Clouds = Judgment. AD70 was God's judgment upon those that were persecuting His saints.

It's really not that hard. Futurism overly complicates something very simple.

I am not a futurist ... Though i believe there are many valid points to futurism and i do believe in a future reign of Christ, as did every one of the early church fathers excepting Eusebius ...

The point of Christs return is not only to judge the nations, but it is also that he might receive those of us who love his appearing to himself that we might ever be with him where ever he may be. He is preparing a place for us, and if he is preparing a place for us he will return to receive us to himself. At that time the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those of us who are alive and remain shall not die, but shall be changed in the tinkling of an eye, this mortal shall put on immortality and this corruptible shall put on incorruption. We will then sometime thereafter sit in judgment over the angels ...


The fact is the language plainly states that Christ will come again just as he left ...
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:11 PM
 
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All the talk of the kingdom being a spiritual kingdom, etc. I believe in a spiritual kingdom. But I also believe there will come a time when the physical ends. Pretersit seem to believe this physical,carnal,sinful world goes on forever. But it seems clear to me that God has a plan for the ages. That plan will be fulfilled at some point in man`s future. But according to God who is outside of time and is a spiritual being it has already been fulfilled. It has already happened. But we in the physical world of time haven`t experienced it yet. The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. It already happened with God. But man didn`t experience it until 2000 years ago.
We can`t wrap our minds around the time concept. We can`t understand what it`s like to be outside of time when everything happens NOW. Everything IS happening,not did happen or will happen. That`s why God knows everything. He knows the beginning from the end because he created it. He is the beginning and the end. He sees everything that did ,is, and will happen. He caused it to happen. He is the first cause of everything. He created time for physical man. He has already seen the past present and future. He is seeing it now. He ordained it to happen even before it happened. Think of Paul and his vision or out of body experience or John. Did they go outside of time to see events that will happen and observe them as they were happening? Were those events already happening but due to the constraints of physical time,had not appeared in the physical realm?
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by psychohmike View Post
Have you not read "The Jewish Wars?"

Upwards of 1.1 million Jews fell by the edge of the sword. Those that were left were taken captive and sold off into slavery into all the world. There were so many Jewish slaves that they were of no value and couldn't even be sold.

Revelation 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Jerusalem was trodden underfoot by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled which Revelation 11 tells us was a 42 month period. Which history tells us happened. The Gentile siege lasted for EXACTLY 42 months as Revelation 11 said it would.

Is there anything in the scriptures that is coincidence? I think not.

History and the fulfillment of Jesus words regarding the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and the destruction of the ministration of death that was persecuting the saints is not on the side of futurism.
I believe that both the destruction of the temple in ad 70, and the destruction of the Jerusalem by Antiochus IV Epiphanes were foreshadowing events. Like i have already said in the past, i believe in a mix of all prophetic Hermeneutics, and that foreshadowing explains what both hyper Preterists and hyper Futurists misunderstand. These past judgments on Israel were types of the final Judgment to come just before God establishes Israel as the head of the nations. We know they were only types because Jerusalem is still trampled under the foot of the gentiles, as the dome of the rock itself stands in the place of the temple ... All the Hebrews have at this time is the wailing wall ... The bible is specific about the eventual restoration of Israel to the head of the nations and the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel.
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