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Old 12-25-2009, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,430 posts, read 7,762,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caucazhin View Post
Its an absolute absurdity to say all the things in the book of Revelation have already taken place
People who believe this have to turn everything into metephors or symbolism.

When it speaks of the "time of Jacobs trouble" and says there would be a time of trouble as there had never been on the earth before.
That is literal.

And if that had happened back in 70A.D. or the 1st century or so the bible would be completely false.
World war 1 and especially world war 2 with the dropping of the atom bomb were a time of trouble way surpassing anything in history before.
That was the worst thing that had happened to them... to whom the book was written. It doesn't say that it will be the worst event the world will ever know... I think you are reading too much into that.
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Old 12-25-2009, 06:47 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,713,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That was the worst thing that had happened to them... to whom the book was written. It doesn't say that it will be the worst event the world will ever know... I think you are reading too much into that.

Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


This is pretty clear, a time of trouble greater than any that has ever been or will ever be ... The darkest time of human history ... It has not yet happened.

World war 4 will be the most devastating war ever. I say world war 4 because the cold was was world war 3 just by proxy ...

The point is, we haven't seen the worst of things yet. World war one and two and all the other wars together will pale in comparison to the destruction which will come upon the earth in the next world war.

What is certain is that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD was nothing compared to world war 2 as far as times of trouble are concerned. So it was is obviously not what Jesus was referring to when he spoke of this time of trouble which is even now still yet to come.
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Old 12-25-2009, 06:58 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,713,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Jesus was telling this parable face to face with others. He was speaking it to them for their understanding or lack thereof.

Same in Revelation. The book was written to the seven churches at that time not to you in the future. Even if it was a late date writing (of which I personally find no evidence to support) then it still wouldn't have been written to you and me but to the seven churches.

The whole bible was then.. why apply it to now?
The prophets of the old testament didnt always prophecy about the things that would happen in their time or to the generation they were prophesying against for that matter. The prophecies throughout the bible both in the old and new testaments refer to some extent to the generation of that time as well as to our own generation now and beyond till all things be subjected to Christ literally and not figuratively. When every knee bows and tongue confesses Christ is Lord ... When every kindred of every nation turns to God and worships him, singing his name ... Only then will Christ works be finished. The prophecies of the old testament literally came true and so will all the prophecies of the new testament(though the prophesies themselves are often symbolic and must be rightly divided in order to make sense of them.)

I will agree that the destruction of the temple in ad 70 was certainly a part of the ministry of Christ of this there can be no doubt. But the destruction of the temple in that time was not the full manifestation of all the things which Christ and later his apostles prophesied of ...
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Old 12-25-2009, 07:10 PM
 
303 posts, read 462,185 times
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IRONMAWs comments are right.......
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Old 12-25-2009, 07:29 PM
 
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I just think one of the nails in Preterism is "every eye shall see Him." Yet Preterism claims Jesus came back in 70 A.D. where no eye saw Him.

Also, another nail is the majority of very early church fathers believed that John's Revelation was written around 93 A.D. in which John was still looking foreward to the return of Christ to set up the 1000 year kingdom on the earth.

Why does it matter if Christ is yet to come? Well, if He already came in 70 A.D. we are not under grace but under law; under the sermon on the mount which is the law on steroids. That's just for starters.
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Old 12-25-2009, 07:42 PM
 
392 posts, read 444,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsherman9901 View Post
What is "truth" to you is probably error to a lot of other people who believe in Christ. In my 50+ years as a believer, I have seen it time and time and time again. We have become like modern-day Pharisees vs Sadducees, in that we argue over so much stupid stuff instead of living lives patterned after Christ, and letting the world see that His light shines though us. Denominations split and split again over minor disagreements in interpretations. Now if THAT doesn't cause people to turn away from the "faith", then what does? I personally do NOT believe in "preterism" but I'm not going to argue over it with someone who does; even if I convert them to my way of thinking, exactly what have I won?

Gideon said, simple, truth is absolute with not varying value. That is truth. There is only one truth. 1+1=2 that is absolute; it can mean nothing else. Proclaiming truth is never stupid; one who sits by idly and does or says nothing in the presence of error is stupid. Proclaiming truth and absoluteness is not opinionated, but rather unmovable. For error will diminish; while truth will always remain for eternity. Christ is the quenticential embodiment of truth. His truth is in His words; the words were left for us to realize truth.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-25-2009 at 08:05 PM..
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Old 12-25-2009, 08:08 PM
 
16,424 posts, read 13,576,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
A Refutation of Preterism
A REFUTATION OF PRETERISM

Hi Eusebius,


So what do we have? An agreement that all the Christian founders believed the end was near which appears in the scriptures. What is the refutation? "postponement" and it appears nowhere in the scriptures. Speaking of pride, it is a human observation that overrides what is in scripture. Perhaps the end was not what you think it was.
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Old 12-25-2009, 08:10 PM
 
392 posts, read 444,790 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by caucazhin View Post
Its an absolute absurdity to say all the things in the book of Revelation have already taken place
People who believe this have to turn everything into metephors or symbolism.

When it speaks of the "time of Jacobs trouble" and says there would be a time of trouble as there had never been on the earth before.
That is literal.

And if that had happened back in 70A.D. or the 1st century or so the bible would be completely false.
World war 1 and especially world war 2 with the dropping of the atom bomb were a time of trouble way surpassing anything in history before.

And if you look at the bowl,trumpet, seven seal judgements and try to link them to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. you are completely deluded because God is judging the whole earth and the whole human race in these passages.
Israel / Jerusalem was already found lacking and judged in 70 A.D. but this judgement is called
"the day of the Lord" and concerns the gentile nations faithlessness and how they missused creation and the earth.
And how they treated Israel throughout history

http://www.pbc.org/files/messages/3147/0236.html

http://ldolphin.org/DayLord.html


Revelation 11
18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.

Isaiah 13:6-13
"Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every man's heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in travail. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant, and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless. I will make men more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger."

Gideon said, I agree. Pretrerist are in ignorance. Tribulation has always existed. II Thessalonians 1 says we will endure tribulation until the end. The difference, is the final 3.5 years of man's time on earth just so happen to be the worst in human history; no time will rival that.
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Old 12-25-2009, 08:31 PM
 
303 posts, read 462,185 times
Reputation: 58
Eusebius said: I just think one of the nails in Preterism is "every eye shall see Him." Yet Preterism claims Jesus came back in 70 A.D. where no eye saw Him.
Also, another nail is the majority of very early church fathers believed that John's Revelation was written around 93 A.D. in which John was still looking foreward to the return of Christ to set up the 1000 year kingdom on the earth.

Eusebius although I disagree vehemently with your universalism I agree wholeheartedly with
you on this subject....Merry Christmas
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:43 PM
 
16,424 posts, read 13,576,821 times
Reputation: 6071
Quote:
Originally Posted by caucazhin View Post
Its an absolute absurdity to say all the things in the book of Revelation have already taken place
People who believe this have to turn everything into metephors or symbolism.

When it speaks of the "time of Jacobs trouble" and says there would be a time of trouble as there had never been on the earth before.
That is literal.

And if that had happened back in 70A.D. or the 1st century or so the bible would be completely false.
World war 1 and especially world war 2 with the dropping of the atom bomb were a time of trouble way surpassing anything in history before.

And if you look at the bowl,trumpet, seven seal judgements and try to link them to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. you are completely deluded because God is judging the whole earth and the whole human race in these passages.
Israel / Jerusalem was already found lacking and judged in 70 A.D. but this judgement is called
"the day of the Lord" and concerns the gentile nations faithlessness and how they missused creation and the earth.
And how they treated Israel throughout history

http://www.pbc.org/files/messages/3147/0236.html

http://ldolphin.org/DayLord.html


Revelation 11
18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.

Isaiah 13:6-13
"Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every man's heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in travail. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant, and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless. I will make men more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger."

Hi caucazhin,


You just answered this with "Jacob's Trouble" which is Israel. Its not the "Nation's Trouble"

If you understand the context in Greek was speaking of the land(GE) relative to the Jews then you would realize it was the worst thing to happen to a single nation. Simply cross reference with Daniel 12 which specifically speaks about a nation.


Daniel 12
“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Note the audience is tribes as in tribes of Israel specifically used
throughout the new testament "phulai" as opposed to all nations "ethnos".

Revelation 1
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth(GE aka land) will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

The tribulation was specifically about the Jews. If it was not then how do we account for the Bible ignoring what did happened in 70 AD?

Who was to endure the utmost wrath and why? Which generation rejected Christ?


1 Thessalonians 2
For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
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