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Old 12-25-2009, 10:49 PM
 
303 posts, read 465,680 times
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gwynedd no offense but you just hung yourself..
The fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.was a judgement from God on the Jews who rejected their Messiah
Why would God send Michael to deliver them from the very judgement He sent ??
And history shows they weren't delivered but infact dispersed ( the dispora ) and almost destroyed

And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,

Last edited by caucazhin; 12-25-2009 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 12-25-2009, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,998,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I just think one of the nails in Preterism is "every eye shall see Him." Yet Preterism claims Jesus came back in 70 A.D. where no eye saw Him.

Also, another nail is the majority of very early church fathers believed that John's Revelation was written around 93 A.D. in which John was still looking foreward to the return of Christ to set up the 1000 year kingdom on the earth.

Why does it matter if Christ is yet to come? Well, if He already came in 70 A.D. we are not under grace but under law; under the sermon on the mount which is the law on steroids. That's just for starters.
See (3708) (optánomai from horao = to see) means to see with the eyes implying not just the mere act of physically seeing but also actual perception (act of coming to comprehend, grasp, attain awareness or understanding of) of what one sees.

This specific form (verb indicative future middle deponent 3rd person plural) is also found in Matt 5:8; 24:30; 28:10; Mk 13:26; Luke 21:27; John 19:37; Acts 2:17; Ro 15:21; Rev 22:4

This act in this context of Rev 1:7 and the Hebrew equivalent in Zech 12:10 is not delegated to seeing this event with our own eyes, but rather knowing, perceiving with the heart and mind, and understanding that it came from God in the context of the events that surround it...ie, the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem itself, and the dispora of the Jewish people in 70 AD.

Full Preterism is a complete harmonization of the scriptures. Any other view....is not.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:11 AM
 
16,423 posts, read 13,751,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caucazhin View Post
gwynedd no offense but you just hung yourself..
The fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.was a judgement from God on the Jews who rejected their Messiah
Why would God send Michael to deliver them from the very judgement He sent ??
And history shows they weren't delivered but infact dispersed ( the dispora ) and almost destroyed
Hi caucazhin,

No offense at all as long as you don't take offense at my comment that you know very little about Christianity to assume that they were not delivered. Almost all the early Christians were Jews. Judaism was destroyed as it cannot function without an Aaronic priesthood. However those that followed Christ were delivered and part of the new nation. Christ is of the original priesthood of the order of Melchizedek.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

You are suffering from the myth that a real Jew is a follower of a pharisee. Its the opposite. A Jew is one who follows the Messiah. Such a person is a Jew inwardly and some of those were Jews by circumcision.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:20 AM
 
16,423 posts, read 13,751,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I just think one of the nails in Preterism is "every eye shall see Him." Yet Preterism claims Jesus came back in 70 A.D. where no eye saw Him.
Hi Eusebius,

Its like saying every eye in the movie theater saw the movie which is to say its contextual to the audience which was the tribes of Israel, not the nations. Young's literal reads "tribes of the land".


Quote:
Also, another nail is the majority of very early church fathers believed that John's Revelation was written around 93 A.D. in which John was still looking foreward to the return of Christ to set up the 1000 year kingdom on the earth.
Its based on one reference by Irenaeus.


Quote:
Why does it matter if Christ is yet to come? Well, if He already came in 70 A.D. we are not under grace but under law; under the sermon on the mount which is the law on steroids. That's just for starters.

Why would we be under the Law? Christ fulfilled the Law. Its not that Christ will not receive you, its that he is not coming back to earth.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:30 AM
 
187 posts, read 251,142 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by caucazhin View Post
gwynedd no offense but you just hung yourself..
The fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.was a judgement from God on the Jews who rejected their Messiah
Why would God send Michael to deliver them from the very judgement He sent ??
And history shows they weren't delivered but infact dispersed ( the dispora ) and almost destroyed

And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
You really need to study history...Read the first paragraph of "The Jewish Wars" by Josephus. He records the fulfillment of Matthew 23 & 24, in great detail. Probably Jesus' greatest prophecy. And he said in the first paragraph of his account that this is exactly what happened.

Your lack of study refutes nothing and only demonstrates your ignorance of the fulfillment of Jesus' words.

Deal with it!!!
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:27 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,357,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi Eusebius,


So what do we have? An agreement that all the Christian founders believed the end was near which appears in the scriptures. What is the refutation? "postponement" and it appears nowhere in the scriptures. Speaking of pride, it is a human observation that overrides what is in scripture. Perhaps the end was not what you think it was.
What we have is the secret not revealed at the time they all thought Christ's return was iminent. And just what was that secret that was putting everything on hold?:

Romans 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering.

So Israel was set aside and so were all the promises to Israel until the complement or fullness of the nations enters (which has not happened yet).

Now look at Romans 11:26 onward and note that Christ comes back AFTER the complement of the nations has come. So this is yet future.

There are other verses about the secret but I am visiting my brother and he does not have a bible program on this computer. Other bibles have "mystery" instead of "secret" for those of you who wish to search this out.
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:33 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,357,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
See (3708) (optánomai from horao = to see) means to see with the eyes implying not just the mere act of physically seeing but also actual perception (act of coming to comprehend, grasp, attain awareness or understanding of) of what one sees.
O.K. so this is the McDonald's religion of "have it your way."
So in 70 A.D. no eye saw Christ, no, not even one eye saw Christ return. No one comprehended, grasped, attained awareness or understanding of Christ' return in 70 A.D. No one "knew, perceived with their heart and mind or understanding" that Christ came back in 70 A.D. Not one church father, not one historian witnessed Christ return on this earth in 70 A.D.

There, happy now? [/quote]
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:21 AM
 
16,423 posts, read 13,751,963 times
Reputation: 6071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
O.K. so this is the McDonald's religion of "have it your way."
So in 70 A.D. no eye saw Christ, no, not even one eye saw Christ return. No one comprehended, grasped, attained awareness or understanding of Christ' return in 70 A.D. No one "knew, perceived with their heart and mind or understanding" that Christ came back in 70 A.D. Not one church father, not one historian witnessed Christ return on this earth in 70 A.D.

There, happy now?

Hi Eusebius,

According to Josephus and Tacitus there was a sighting in the clouds. However Christ returning to them was in judgment and only to Judeans in Jerusalem just as the only the tribes are mentioned in Revelation and not the nations.

Tacitus Histories

Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice. There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing.
If you are speaking about Jesus returning in as per Acts how is it that he will return in like manner with every eye seeing him since only the Men of Galilee saw him leave? There is no one second coming of Christ. He certainly could come in judgment multiple times or for that matter appear to Paul in Acts 9. That is why the so called literal interpretation is a false one not just according to time.
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”


How is it that one church in Asia(church in Pergamos ) may cause Christ to return?

Revelation 2
6 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly


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Old 12-26-2009, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,998,522 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
O.K. so this is the McDonald's religion of "have it your way."
So in 70 A.D. no eye saw Christ, no, not even one eye saw Christ return. No one comprehended, grasped, attained awareness or understanding of Christ' return in 70 A.D. No one "knew, perceived with their heart and mind or understanding" that Christ came back in 70 A.D. Not one church father, not one historian witnessed Christ return on this earth in 70 A.D.

There, happy now?
Were you there? Might want to read up on early church literature...oh wait, but I already showed you some from Eusebius, and you rejected it LOL
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:08 PM
 
303 posts, read 465,680 times
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And suppose when Jesus came back in 70 A.D. He came through the Eastern Gate as prophesied and everyone bowed

"And every knee will bow"

psychcoh Mike your name serves you well

preterists are full of such nosnensical dribble its pathetic
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