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Old 01-05-2010, 06:21 PM
 
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Sciotamicks, if i went around promising people i would do things for them, and then i didn't do those things, i would be a liar. Even if i said i did what i promised in spirit. Thats called being flaky and or unreliable. Is god flaky? Does he mean what he says and say what he means and mean what he says?

If i told you "i will help you move out of your apartment", and then when the time came i didnt show up ... Would you think im a liar?

What if i said to you after the fact that i did help you move, even though in reality i didn't, but that you didn't understand that i was being figurative ... Would you think was making excuses or would you think i was being honest?

If i lived my life and my word was how Preterists interpret the word of God, no one would ever be able to depend on me or trust what i said.

That is the logical conclusion after all.
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:26 PM
 
118 posts, read 139,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
In your mind ... Not in reality ... The context is clear, but your understanding and interpretation are confused.

Your hermeneutic is confused and self contradicting ... Irrational and illogical.

Though you will be ashamed because of your present misunderstanding, you will finally rejoice when all is done, along with all creation. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Christ is lord. All the kindred of the nations will turn unto God and worship him and sing his name with joy. Not some of the kindred of the nations, not only those that now believe. All things in heaven and in earth and beneath the earth ... All things visible and invisible ... All powers and principalities and rulers and authorities will be reconciled unto God through Christ and his judgments and grace. Nothing you say can or will change that.

For God is the savior of all men, especially those that believe.

Not only those that believe ...

Selah ...
I really don't see an answer to the question proposed.......

May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.


Forever in plain grammer means they will never see. Do you see anything else in the scripture that states that will change?
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:41 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,708,585 times
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Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
I really don't see an answer to the question proposed.......

May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”


Forever in plain grammer means they will never see. Do you see anything else in the scripture that states that will change?
Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?



They were cast away ... Forever? No, that is a mistranslation ... As we see at the end of the verse that they will be received back again, as the resurrection of the dead.

The word translated "for ever" is "dia pantos" and it means continually, not forever ...



The phrase dia pantos is found in ...


Luke 24:53

And were continually(dia pantos) in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Were they forever in the temple? they never left the temple? they didn't go home to bathe and eat and sleep? Are they still in the temple today or are they dead?


And again ...

Mar 5:5
And always(dia pantos), night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.


Was the man possessed by legion "forever" in the mountains and tombs? Is he still in the mountains and tombs crying and rending his flesh? I though Christ cast out the demon and the man was healed?



And yet again ...

Hbr 9:6
Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always(dia pantos) into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.


Are the priests still going into the first tabernacle? The first tabernacle was destroyed thousands of years ago.


Exegesis ...
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:03 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,252 posts, read 8,897,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?



They were cast away ... Forever? No, that is a mistranslation ...

Exegesis ...
I'm sorry Iron, maybe you've said this and I haven't seen it.......

What is your theological training\background to make such judgements of mistranslation?
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,942,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Sciotamicks, if i went around promising people i would do things for them, and then i didn't do those things, i would be a liar. Even if i said i did what i promised in spirit. Thats called being flaky and or unreliable. Is god flaky? Does he mean what he says and say what he means and mean what he says?
Yes He does, and He did it.


Quote:
If i lived my life and my word was how Preterists interpret the word of God, no one would ever be able to depend on me or trust what i said.

That is the logical conclusion after all.
Why is that? Living your life as a Preterist means you have all, not postponed salvation or blessings, but all that was promised to you.

You can take that to any unbeliever, and I will bet you, they will listen when you say, the end is not near, as it already happened, many many years ago. Believe me, I have already done this very thing.

People listen, more so than they would if you said "The end is Near!"
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:56 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,708,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I'm sorry Iron, maybe you've said this and I haven't seen it.......

What is your theological training\background to make such judgements of mistranslation?
Well, i was raised by my father who was a minister and who graduated after many years of seminary. He began teaching me everything he knew when i was six years old ... I have been a student of the word for nearly thirty years now myself. I have studied and still do study the church fathers and their interpretations of scriptures along with contemporary professors concerning the faith and theologians.

Nevertheless it is not the teaching of man that i profess or claim to be correct because of but the ministry of the spirit of God throughout the duration of my life.

Regardless of what my "training" is, the exegesis i have shown proves itself. Dia pantos does not mean for ever as i have clearly demonstrated through the scriptures themselves. Did the man possessed by legion cry in the hills and tombs and rend his flesh forever or not? Is he still there possessed by legion even now and will he be there forever or not? Of course not, so does dia pantos mean forever? of course not, it means continually ...

If you cannot accept the facts concerning what i have said that has nothing to do with my training or background, it has to do with you inability to understand what the scriptures say in regard these things.
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:31 PM
 
118 posts, read 139,537 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?



They were cast away ... Forever? No, that is a mistranslation ... As we see at the end of the verse that they will be received back again, as the resurrection of the dead.

The word translated "for ever" is "dia pantos" and it means continually, not forever ...



The phrase dia pantos is found in ...


Luke 24:53

And were continually(dia pantos) in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Were they forever in the temple? they never left the temple? they didn't go home to bathe and eat and sleep? Are they still in the temple today or are they dead?


And again ...

Mar 5:5
And always(dia pantos), night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.


Was the man possessed by legion "forever" in the mountains and tombs? Is he still in the mountains and tombs crying and rending his flesh? I though Christ cast out the demon and the man was healed?



And yet again ...

Hbr 9:6
Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always(dia pantos) into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.


Are the priests still going into the first tabernacle? The first tabernacle was destroyed thousands of years ago.


Exegesis ...
Sounds good but even "continually" is linked with verse 15. Let us take a look:

Romans 11

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always(CONTINUALLY.)

The subject of this verse is 1st century ethnic Israel. We can both agree on that is who is being referenced.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

We can both agree that with the breaking off of the majority of ethnic Israel due to their rejection the gentiles have the promise of salvation as well to provoke jealousy. Am I correct in stating this?

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

This goes hand in hand with verse 15 below.

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

This verse is the key to understanding verse 15. Here we have Paul stating that he may save some of them. Who is Paul talking about? Is it not those previously mentioned in verse 11 of rejecting Israel who rejected the Gospel? Why would Paul add this verse after verse 11 if this were not those that Paul believed he would save? He cannot be talking about the 21st century he is talking about those of ethnic Israel of the 1st century who during the course of his 1st century ministry would be saved.......all Jews. Those he mentions as his "flesh" , which must mean ethnic Israel that were broken off due to their rejection. Paul is speaking about the reconciliation of many of lost Israel that he would might save during his ministry. Israel in the 21st century or anything beyond the 1st century is not in view here. We also have the word "might". The word might is not that it has to happen. Here we have Paul stating his hope of saving some of those of Israel that originally rejected the Gospel.

Verse 14 brings us now full circle to verse 15.


15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul is stating those in verse 14 of ethnic Israel who were cast away and out of those who might receive Christ through his efforts would be saved as well. It is a question of who is Paul addressing. Paul through verse 14 is only addressing those that originally rejected the Gospel of ethnic Israel and who might be saved through his efforts. This cannot go further then Paul's ministry because verse 14 is only speaking about Paul's efforts and his hope in converting some Jews.

How do you see anything further then 1st century fulfillment when Paul himself is speaking about those that he might lead to Christ? Verse 14 is the interpretation of verse 15's "receiving of them". "Them" being 1st century Israel who might be saved since verse 11 is all about 1st century Israel's rejection.......not 21st century Israel or before. The subject of verse 14 is who is being referenced in verse 15. Who is that if not in Paul's own words is his own "flesh" or rejecting Israel? The very fact that Paul uses the term "some" is not "ALL". We do not need every single person of Israel to receive the Gospel to have a fulfillment since Paul only stated in verse 14 that he "might" save "some of them". "Might" and "some" do not imply that "ALL" Israel or even "any" of Israel would be saved. It is merely the hope of Paul to convert some of ethnic Israel to Christ in his time. He is posing hope for some, that is all. Verse 15 is merely a question of hope.

Were some Jews converted in the time of Paul's ministry, I believe they were and his hope in their conversion was fulfilled.



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Old 01-05-2010, 09:08 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,708,585 times
Reputation: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
Sounds good but even "continually" is linked with verse 15. Let us take a look:

Romans 11

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always(CONTINUALLY.)

The subject of this verse is 1st century ethnic Israel. We can both agree on that is who is being referenced.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

We can both agree that with the breaking off of the majority of ethnic Israel due to their rejection the gentiles have the promise of salvation as well to provoke jealousy. Am I correct in stating this?

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

This goes hand in hand with verse 15 below.

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

This verse is the key to understanding verse 15. Here we have Paul stating that he may save some of them. Who is Paul talking about? Is it not those previously mentioned in verse 11 of rejecting Israel who rejected the Gospel? Why would Paul add this verse after verse 11 if this were not those that Paul believed he would save? He cannot be talking about the 21st century he is talking about those of ethnic Israel of the 1st century who during the course of his 1st century ministry would be saved.......all Jews. Those he mentions as his "flesh" , which must mean ethnic Israel that were broken off due to their rejection. Paul is speaking about the reconciliation of many of lost Israel that he would might save during his ministry. Israel in the 21st century or anything beyond the 1st century is not in view here. We also have the word "might". The word might is not that it has to happen. Here we have Paul stating his hope of saving some of those of Israel that originally rejected the Gospel.

Verse 14 brings us now full circle to verse 15.


15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul is stating those in verse 14 of ethnic Israel who were cast away and out of those who might receive Christ through his efforts would be saved as well. It is a question of who is Paul addressing. Paul through verse 14 is only addressing those that originally rejected the Gospel of ethnic Israel and who might be saved through his efforts. This cannot go further then Paul's ministry because verse 14 is only speaking about Paul's efforts and his hope in converting some Jews.

How do you see anything further then 1st century fulfillment when Paul himself is speaking about those that he might lead to Christ? Verse 14 is the interpretation of verse 15's "receiving of them". "Them" being 1st century Israel who might be saved since verse 11 is all about 1st century Israel's rejection.......not 21st century Israel or before. The subject of verse 14 is who is being referenced in verse 15. Who is that if not in Paul's own words is his own "flesh" or rejecting Israel? The very fact that Paul uses the term "some" is not "ALL". We do not need every single person of Israel to receive the Gospel to have a fulfillment since Paul only stated in verse 14 that he "might" save "some of them". "Might" and "some" do not imply that "ALL" Israel or even "any" of Israel would be saved. It is merely the hope of Paul to convert some of ethnic Israel to Christ in his time. He is posing hope for some, that is all. Verse 15 is merely a question of hope.

Were some Jews converted in the time of Paul's ministry, I believe they were and his hope in their conversion was fulfilled.



Paul clearly made a distinction between two types of Israelites, those that believe(elect) and those that God blinded. They are both distinct Groups of Israelites. And all Israel he says will be saved. I know you preterists have blinders on regarding any other understanding than what you have been taught, but the context is clear.
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:26 PM
 
118 posts, read 139,537 times
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Paul clearly made a distinction between two types of Israelites, those that believe(elect) and those that God blinded. They are both distinct Groups of Israelites. And all Israel he says will be saved. I know you preterists have blinders on regarding any other understanding than what you have been taught, but the context is clear.
Well I still don't see your answer to my comments. Who is Paul referring to in verse 14? Here it is again:

Romans 11

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


Who is being referenced here? Are the them's in verse 14 and 15 contemporaries of Paul or those 2000+ years later. I agree that Paul is speaking of the unsaved of Israel but my argument is who you believe is the subject of verse 14 which answers verse 15. If the "they" of verse 10 and 11 is speaking of contemporaries of Paul then the "them" in verses 14 and 15 must also be contemporaries. It is proven by the identification of

Who is the subject of verse 14?
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,942,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Paul clearly made a distinction between two types of Israelites, those that believe(elect) and those that God blinded. They are both distinct Groups of Israelites. And all Israel he says will be saved. I know you preterists have blinders on regarding any other understanding than what you have been taught, but the context is clear.
Lest you forget, we were all once taught as Dispensationlists.
And yes, he distinctly separated the two types of Israelites, Gentiles who were grafted into Israel, the seed of the promises of Abraham, the remnant and elected; and those, whom "let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always."

dia pantos - continually, always, constantly

Romans 9:6-7 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.

The Gentiles were "grafted into" the remnant Israel, making up the church, spiritual Israel, which is Israel now, the complete remnant....all Israel.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

All Israel, Jew and Gentile, the church, the remnant.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-05-2010 at 10:19 PM.. Reason: sp
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