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Old 12-29-2009, 02:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Jesus and the twelve apostles are not going to somehow be metaphorically ruling over the nations as some sort of secret society in which only the initiated can know. The whole world will know they are being ruled over by Christ and the 12 from Jerusalem.



No, Galatians was written to us of the nations. Our Jerusalem truly is the one above to which we are heading. The Circumcision believers remain on the earth and rule from the terrestrial Jerusalem.



Not quite there yet, friend:

Rev 20:7 And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."
Rev 20:8 And he will be coming out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea."
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and surround the citadel of the saints and the beloved city. And fire descended from God out of heaven and devoured them."

The nations are the Gentiles, not the Jews.

Preterism is dead in the water.
Christ could not have come back in 70 A.D. and set up the 1000 year kingdom which, according to Preterism has already passed and replaced by the New Earth because of Romans 11:25,26.
Boy oh boy...

Gog and Magog were the enemies of God.

First century Christ rejecting Jews were the enemies of God.

First century Jews that were persecuting the saints were the enemies of God.

In the book of Revelation, Jerusalem was also called Sodom, Egypt and Babylon. All were enemies of God. The Jews were the enemies of God. The Jews were persecuting the saints. And fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. Even Titus Vespasian himself acknowledged AD70 was the hand of God judging Jerusalem.

Your ignorance of scripture and history in no way affects preterism.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Christ could not have come back in 70 A.D. and set up the 1000 year kingdom which, according to Preterism has already passed and replaced by the New Earth because of Romans 11:25,26.
Matthew 12:28-29, 8But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 2Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

We see here Jesus first giving us a glimpse into the “binding” which was currently taking place during His ministry. Jesus proclaimed that what He was doing was by the Spirit of God, therefore, the Kingdom of God was upon them, and thus, the strong man’s house was being plundered through His ministry. However, the time had not yet come for this “strong man” to be completely plundered, but it would.

And so we come to Revelation 20, the great passage of the thousand year period. In Revelation 20, verses 1-3 John describes the coming down from heaven of a mighty angel who lays hold upon the Devil, and binds him and casts him into the bottomless pit, “till the thousand years should be fulfilled,” after which “he must be loosed a little season”;

and verse 7 says:

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.” When reading this passage concerning the “binding of Satan” we must regard this act as either a complete or a partial depriving of Satan of his power.

There are two primary reasons that this “binding” period was only a partial deprivation of Satan and his powers.

The first reason that this binding was not a complete deprivation of Satan’s powers was that after the period of the “thousand years” Satan is THEN subjected to the final judgment after he deceived the nations for the period of a “little while.”

During the time of a “little while” (Rev. 20: 3), Satan is given complete control to be able to “deceive the nations.” Prior to this time the purpose of being bound was to prevent him from “deceiving the nations.” It is of note here to consider that the “nations” Satan was going to deceive were the nations that would “surround the camp of the Saints and the beloved city” (Rev. 20:7-9). This was a perfect description of the Roman armies that surrounded Jerusalem and destroyed the city and fought against the Jewish rebellion from AD 67-70 (the 3 ˝ year Jewish War).

The fact that Rome actually limited Jewish persecution against the Christians prior to 64 A.D. tells us that the “deceiver” was indeed limited in his power, because he did not have power to deceive the Roman government, nor to stop the Gospel from spreading throughout Syria, Judea, and to the ends of the earth. As reported by Paul in his own letters, and also Luke records says about Paul’s ministry that his Roman citizenship protected him from Jewish persecution (Acts 26).

In the last verse in the book of Acts (Acts 28:31) Luke records for us that Paul was able to preach the Gospel to the whole world with boldness and without hindrance up until the end of his recorded ministry. Given that the book of Acts was written in or around the years of AD 60-62, we have grounds therefore to say that the Biblical account is in agreement that from the time of Christ to the period of the Neronian persecutions, there was little resistance keeping the Christians from expanding and performing the Great Commission (a period lasting about 34-38 years).

Could it be that the reason Paul was uninhibited up to this point was because Satan had been bound and had no power over his ministry and the ministry of the Apostles and disciples?

Also, remember that “something” was holding back the “man of sin” according to Paul (2 Thessalonians 2) in his own day, and that the disciples knew who he was, or at the very least that he was alive and that they were aware of who or what was holding him back, but he would not be revealed until “the rebellion comes” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).

Anyone familiar with Jewish history knows that this rebellion took place in 66A.D. and that it culminated in the final destruction of the national people of Israel and the Temple at the hands of the Roman armies.

The binding of Satan was therefore something less than a complete taking-away of his power during this period because Paul, during his own ministry, said that he still fought against principalities and powers, and he said that Satan would “soon be crushed under your feet” (Romans 16:20) during that time. If being bound completely prohibited Satan from any action, there would have been nothing for Paul and the Apostles to have fought against during this time, however, the power of the great Prince (Jesus Himself) gave them strength through the Holy Spirit to overcome so that no evil would defeat them or overpower them.

The strong man is Satan; no commentator I am familiar with disagrees with this. The one who is strong enough to bind Satan is none other than Jesus. But Satan is not so bound as to have no power at all as I have previously stated. It is the limitation of his power, a lessening of his influence and activities which cannot be overcome since the “stronger” man has all power.

The binding period therefore was not a complete wiping out of Satan’s powers; it was however a complete prohibition of his powers through the ministry of Jesus Christ, and through the power that was given to the Apostles over Satan and his works. This was necessary in order that the Gospel be spread to the entire world. Jesus commanded them to do so, and if Satan had been allowed to deceive the nations, and also to wreak havoc on the Christians (prohibiting them from spreading the Gospel message), this feat would not have been accomplished.

A passage in Hebrews will help us at this point:

“For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through (His own) death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the Devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb. 2:14-15).

This clearly refers to the same truth as that declared by Christ in Matthew 12:29; for the one whose power was destroyed by Jesus is expressly said to be “the Devil,” and those who are delivered from his power, “the children,” are “the goods” of which Jesus, by His death, has stripped him of his former powers. It is evident too, that “destroy him” does not mean the complete deprivation of his power, nor his final judgment, for he still exercises the power of death in the Law after Jesus dies and is resurrected (i.e.- the Temple and Jewish nation, and the legal ordinances still stood after the crucifixion), and on a large scale; but it means the crippling and limiting of that power, which Satan could then exercise only on those who chose not to believe in Jesus Christ.

The above statement is in full agreement with the words of Christ to the seventy, when they returned to Him with joy, saying, “Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through your Name.

And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy” (Luke 10:19).

Here was the binding of Satan, in that his power was greatly restricted as well through the Apostles works. In John’s vision the binding of Satan was done by the instrumentality of an angel from heaven; and by the passage in Hebrews we learn that the effective cause of the breaking of his power was the death of Jesus Christ. It is pertinent therefore to recall that, on the morning of His resurrection, “the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door” (Mat. 28:2). There is a suggestive correspondence between the action of opening the door of the tomb of the Lord Jesus, rolling away the great stone by means of which His body had been sealed therein, and the action of shutting Satan up in the abyss and setting a seal upon him. It suggests that both actions were performed by the same mighty angel and at the same time.

That Satan’s power is greatly limited during the ministry of the disciples, but not wholly destroyed, is certainly the fact. Consider that Jesus said as He approached His death on the cross,

‘Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out’ (John 12:31, 16:11).

But He did not cast him out in every sense; for He said afterward, “The ruler of this world is coming, and he has no claim on me” (John 14:30).

Here are conceptions of the limiting of Satan, or the casting out of Satan, that should guide us in interpreting Revelation 20. If now we have reasoned correctly up to this point, it is easy to say what ‘the thousand years’ signifies. It is quite surely the time from the binding of Satan (the beginning of Jesus ministry), through the period of time in which Paul and the Apostles preached and had authority over Satan in Jesus name, and up until the time that the “deceiver” was allowed to go out for “a little while” (i.e.- AD 66-70) to deceive the nations (i.e.-Rome and her armies), and to bring about the destruction that came upon the Jewish nation and Jerusalem, and the temple itself.

Consider the following interpretation for the events in the 20th chapter of Revelation (comments in PARENTHESIS):

Revelation 20:4-10, 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (This group are those Christians who received salvation during and after the ministry of Christ and who were also killed for their faith during this 40 year period) 5 But the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. (Vs. 5 of this passage is actually an afterthought, or a mid-sentence separator indicated in the Greek that this group is not part of the former group until after this period of time. This is indicated by the word “but” at the beginning of vs. 5. In other words, the writer is telling you that this “first resurrection to life” which the New Testament Saints were experiencing would not be experienced for the “rest of the dead” until after this period of the “thousand years.” We are then told that the ones who share in this “first resurrection” are blessed and Holy and that will reign with Christ during this period of time over their enemies). 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy people and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (This passage is really very clear in light of history, and Jesus’ own statements pertaining the “surrounding of the holy city by armies” Luke 19:43, 21:20; Daniel 9:27. After this “40 year period” also known as the “thousand years” the nations, i.e.- the Roman government and their armies, would be given over to deception at the hand of Satan and surround Jerusalem and the holy people of Israel, i.e.- the same holy people of Israel as Daniel 12 predicted would be completely shattered during these events, and then the final judgment would take place for all these people, and Satan, and the beast, and the false prophet to be tormented forever).

Concerning the “first resurrection” of Revelation 20 there is also strong evidence that the first Christians were experiencing it during Jesus’ ministry and after Jesus’ ascension (John 3:16; 11:17-27; Romans 6:4,11-13; 8:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:19; 6:15; Ephesians 2:1-6; 4:22-24; 5:14; Colossians 2:12,13; 3:1-3,10; 1 Peter 2:24).

Revelation 20 specifically says that during the thousand year period those who experienced this “first resurrection” would be those who reigned with Christ until the loosing of Satan and the final judgment of the city of Jerusalem, the beast, the false prophet, and Satan himself. Jesus even predicted this wrath, or Day of Judgment, and said it would come upon “that generation.”

In Matthew 3:7 Jesus condemned the Pharisees and Sadducees and asked them who warned them of the wrath they would soon face? Matthew 12:41-42 also describes this wrath and says that something greater than Solomon and Jonah was present with them, and yet they rejected Him, and so “that generation” would be judged for it.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:46 PM
 
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That generation was judged.

The 3 1/2 year war you point to was not the 3 1/2 years of persecution by the antichrist.

Christ could not have come back in 70 A.D. If He did and if He ruled over the nations with the 12 apostles for 1000 years then it was the greatest failure ever recorded in history. In fact, it would have been better if He just remained in heaven if that's the case.

Last edited by Eusebius; 12-29-2009 at 04:02 PM..
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Old 12-29-2009, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That generation was judged.

The 3 1/2 year war you point to what not the 3 1/2 years of persecution by the antichrist.

Christ could not have come back in 70 A.D. If He did and if He ruled over the nations with the 12 apostles for 1000 years then it was the greatest failure ever recorded in history. In fact, it would have been better if He just remained in heaven if that's the case.
First you have to divorce yourself from the thought of 1000 being literal, when predominantly the entire book of Revelation is FULL of symbols.

That is your first step.
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Old 12-29-2009, 04:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
First you have to divorce yourself from the thought of 1000 being literal, when predominantly the entire book of Revelation is FULL of symbols.

That is your first step.
Revelation is full of literal and symbolic. It takes a trained teacher to know the difference.

1000 years is literal. Jesus being a lamb is figurative.

Death is literal. A sword issuing from Christ's mouth is figurative.

144,000 is literal. Washing one's robe in blood is figurative.

But this is getting off the mark. The point is that it has been shown Preterism is wrong. Christ could not have come back in 70 A.D. and reigned over Israel and the nations for 1000 years, one week, one day, one hour, 40 years or whatever. No one noticed it if He and they did. No one benefitted by it if He did. So it would have been better if He just stayed Home.
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Old 12-29-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Revelation is full of literal and symbolic. It takes a trained teacher to know the difference.

1000 years is literal. Jesus being a lamb is figurative.

Death is literal. A sword issuing from Christ's mouth is figurativeh.

144,000 is literal. Washing one's robe in blood is figurative.
No..1000 years is figurative, Jesus being a Lamb is as well
144K is figurative and so is the sword out of Christ's mouth.
You will notice that not only did "death and hades" [a euphemism for OC Israel] deliver up the dead in them, BUT ALSO "the sea" [a euphemism for the Gentiles] gave up its dead as well....two kinds of Dead..being judged.

Or is it one kind in two different places per your logic?

Preterism contends that in the AD70 Parousia of Christ the LAST enemy to be destroyed was "the death" [1 Cor 15:26]; and IF along with the death its paralysing venom of the sin duly empowered by the law likewise suffered demise [1 Cor 15:56]; and further… IF God having reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself through the blood of Christ's cross [Col 1:20], THEN regardless of what you or I or anybody else thinks or reasons – with the LAST enemy gone – God has no more enemies.

They are finished. God is now, all in all, every knee has bowed to Him.
Now even IF in the ignorance or arrogance of some men's feeble thinking they consider themselves enemies of God, from HIS perspective they are not [Col 1:21]. The logic is clear-cut – IF from a pręterist perspective the last enemy to be destroyed was death then consistency dictates that there can be NO MORE ENEMIES thereafter; therefore God has no more enemies, period! And so, IF God has made peace, and the Scriptures testify He has, then who are we to question His gracious will?

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Quote:
But this is getting off the mark. The point is that it has been shown Preterism is wrong. Christ could not have come back in 70 A.D. and reigned over Israel and the nations for 1000 years, one week, one day, one hour, 40 years or whatever. No one noticed it if He and they did. No one benefitted by it if He did. So it would have been better if He just stayed Home.
.
You have shown nothing of the sort, as a matter of fact, you have given it much more credibility.

Really? No one benefitted? So your Salvation is not complete then?
Your justification has not been rendered realized?
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Old 12-29-2009, 08:08 PM
 
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It clearly seems to me that:

1) The NT writers thought the Lord's return would happen in their liftime.

2) Their use of terms and phrases like - near, soon, a little while, at hand, ect. all demonstrate this. Also the idea of Jesus' own words regarding this generation, the promise that the disciples would not see death, and like statments seem to substantiate this.

3) Just because Jesus did not know the day or the hour does not mean it should be expanded to 2000+ yrs. Nor should it be expanded because Paul thought that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in, for that, in their mind, could have taken 40-60 years and then all Israel would be saved. It was that genreation's responsibility to preach the gospel until the return of the Lord.

4) Number three is demonstrated by the fact that Paul and others said the the gospel had been preached in the entire world to all creatures and that it had gone unto the ends of the earth.

5) The Book of Rev. makes it hard to escape from this conculsion since it clearly, in many places, puts the return of Christ as soon, near, at hand, ect.

But on the Futurist's side the writers of the NT seemed to expect the physical return of the Lord and a physical resurrection with a new order even for the creation itself and this has not happened.

So it would seem that a partial Preterist view is needed but what one???
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Old 12-29-2009, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
It clearly seems to me that:

1) The NT writers thought the Lord's return would happen in their liftime.

2) Their use of terms and phrases like - near, soon, a little while, at hand, ect. all demonstrate this. Also the idea of Jesus' own words regarding this generation, the promise that the disciples would not see death, and like statments seem to substantiate this.

3) Just because Jesus did not know the day or the hour does not mean it should be expanded to 2000+ yrs. Nor should it be expanded because Paul thought that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in, for that, in their mind, could have taken 40-60 years and then all Israel would be saved. It was that genreation's responsibility to preach the gospel until the return of the Lord.

4) Number three is demonstrated by the fact that Paul and others said the the gospel had been preached in the entire world to all creatures and that it had gone unto the ends of the earth.

5) The Book of Rev. makes it hard to escape from this conculsion since it clearly, in many places, puts the return of Christ as soon, near, at hand, ect.

But on the Futurist's side the writers of the NT seemed to expect the physical return of the Lord and a physical resurrection with a new order even for the creation itself and this has not happened.

So it would seem that a partial Preterist view is needed but what one???
Shiloh,

Great Post, however I also want to point one thing out to you that will render the Partial Preterist view moot:

stoicheion - Elements, rudiments, principles

Of the few times this word is used in the New Testament, it is always in reference to the Old Covenant:

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

This was clearly in reference to the Old system of Covenant Israel, and that did burn up with fervent heat in 70 AD, thus fulfilling the prophecies, and ushering in the New Covenantal Order and System under Christ.

Death and Hades were swallowed up.
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Old 12-29-2009, 08:33 PM
 
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I think we miss the fact that those that first heard any of the scriptures being quoted about would have never have thought that a time 2000+ years later was what was meant.

In the judgements against Babylon, Ninevah, Edom etc. or the restoration of Jerusalem from the Babylonian Exile, did the thought ever enter the minds of the audience that first heard these prophecies ever think that they would be fulfilled thousands of years later?

I don't believe so. When God said he would restore Israel in 70 years after stating it in the time of the Babylonian exile, He actually meant what He said. Israel did come back to Jerusalem through Cyrus of the Medo-Persian empire after 70 years.

The judgements against Babylon, Edom, Ninevah etc. were actually against the empires that existed when the prophecies were written. The original audience would never have thought that empires thousands of years after them was what God had in mind.

Same as in the New Testament. Every time God stated soon, near, at hand, this generation etc. either He actually meant what He said or He did not have those that first heard it in mind. In other words the words of comfort God was giving in the time of trouble they were currently in was not for them. It had no meaning for them, and it was for a future generation. What a letdown.

Either God means a time we understand or we must interpret every time statement under what 1 Peter states as "a day with the Lord is a thousand years". If this is how we are to interpret prophecy then EVERY time a time statement is given, it cannot mean the plain meaning of the words.

In other words God says soon, he may mean 1000 years. When God says He created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th day He may mean not a literal 6 days but 6000 years and rested 1000 years. Do we see the problem of interpreting all time statements under this premise? It is better to believe God that when He gives a time statement, He means it so we can understand it( He is not writing to Himself.)

If our interpretation of how something was fulfilled doesn't fit with what God says we must not change his words to mean something else, we must change our understanding of it's fulfillment.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
I think we miss the fact that those that first heard any of the scriptures being quoted about would have never have thought that a time 2000+ years later was what was meant.

In the judgements against Babylon, Ninevah, Edom etc. or the restoration of Jerusalem from the Babylonian Exile, did the thought ever enter the minds of the audience that first heard these prophecies ever think that they would be fulfilled thousands of years later?

I don't believe so. When God said he would restore Israel in 70 years after stating it in the time of the Babylonian exile, He actually meant what He said. Israel did come back to Jerusalem through Cyrus of the Medo-Persian empire after 70 years.

The judgements against Babylon, Edom, Ninevah etc. were actually against the empires that existed when the prophecies were written. The original audience would never have thought that empires thousands of years after them was what God had in mind.

Same as in the New Testament. Every time God stated soon, near, at hand, this generation etc. either He actually meant what He said or He did not have those that first heard it in mind. In other words the words of comfort God was giving in the time of trouble they were currently in was not for them. It had no meaning for them, and it was for a future generation. What a letdown.

Either God means a time we understand or we must interpret every time statement under what 1 Peter states as "a day with the Lord is a thousand years". If this is how we are to interpret prophecy then EVERY time a time statement is given, it cannot mean the plain meaning of the words.

In other words God says soon, he may mean 1000 years. When God says He created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th day He may mean not a literal 6 days but 6000 years and rested 1000 years. Do we see the problem of interpreting all time statements under this premise? It is better to believe God that when He gives a time statement, He means it so we can understand it( He is not writing to Himself.)

If our interpretation of how something was fulfilled doesn't fit with what God says we must not change his words to mean something else, we must change our understanding of it's fulfillment.
Exaxctly! Why not just get a scribe and dictate what he wanted if it had no meaning to the people he was talking to... He as in all those who wrote the NT.
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