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Old 12-23-2011, 03:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
I'm not sure I understand the point of debating this question. Whether it's a sin, or it isn't a sin, some people are still gay and they are going to decide for themselves whether or not, to be in a gay relationship.

Man doesn't decide what punishments will be, God does. It's none of our business whether or not a person chooses to risk their soul.

Even if being gay were a sin (not saying it is or it isn't) so what? There are many things that are considered sinful. Is being gay the worst sin in the Bible? I doubt it! So why do people choose to dwell on this question. I just don't get it.
Because it's one of the few issues most Christians will never personally have to deal with. Divorce, adultery, greed, obesity, pre-marital sex, envy, anger, etc. etc. are all VERY VERY common among Christians (particularly conservatives). However, most of them will never be faced with the issue of being gay, and therefore it's an easy target. Add to that a few out of context, English quote mined verses that were corrupted by conservative Bible publishers, stick a bow on it, and you've got a recipe for gays being hated and demonized.

 
Old 12-23-2011, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
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JrHockey. You are correct about the fact that the Old Testament prohibits certain behavior that is not condemned in the New Testament. The reason is that God gave laws to the Old Testament Jews to regulate their society, like punishment for certain sins, crimes etc. God was establishing a theocracy, a nation regulated by God's laws. He also had the moral law, the Basic 10 Commandments, and also ceremonial laws, which regulated worship of God, sacrifices, the building of the ark, food regulations, etc. All this was wiped out for New Testament Christians, except the moral laws. Why? The ceremonial laws don't apply since the temple and sacrifices have all been destroyed. The intention was that these sacrifices would point to the one ultimate sacrifice that would pay for all sins, Jesus death on the cross. The civil laws don't apply since the theocracy is no more, and never will be again. The moral laws are reiterated in the New Testament and are given so that Christians would understand their duties as Christians, and explain how to "love your neighbor as yourself" Part of that includes prohibitions for Christians against any sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage.
 
Old 12-23-2011, 03:53 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
In the Bible, sometimes the reasons why something is said are every bit as important as that it was said. If the more liberal position on this issue is correct, the why of these verses is because these practices were associated with well known cults (the Cult of Cybele for example) of the time and their for were idolatrous practices that God "gave them over to." It was apart of their worship, it may not necessarily have been their born in sexual preference. That's how the argument goes anyways.

Also it should be noted about the Old testament Torah law is that many other things that we do on a daily basis like "wear clothes of Two different fabrics" were also considered abominations or at least used the same Hebrew word to describe them.
It may or may not have been apart of cult practices -- that doesn't change the actual practices. I am looking at the text & from it I gathered what I stated. You (not you in particular) could probably debate and spin things a 'liberal direction' or a 'right wing direction.' Doesn't matter to me either side. IMHO that is what it says and that is what was meant. Times were certainly different then and have changed that's true, but that doesn't change the meanings of words on a page. If you were to take those passages out of the Bible and put them on a paper & ask me, 'what is the message these passages are trying to convey?' It would still mean the same thing, this is my opinion. Obviously people are free to decide otherwise. I have no personal stake in someone else's relationships (or lack thereof) with a higher power
 
Old 12-23-2011, 04:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doll Eyes View Post
It may or may not have been apart of cult practices -- that doesn't change the actual practices. I am looking at the text & from it I gathered what I stated. You (not you in particular) could probably debate and spin things a 'liberal direction' or a 'right wing direction.' Doesn't matter to me either side. IMHO that is what it says and that is what was meant. Times were certainly different then and have changed that's true, but that doesn't change the meanings of words on a page. If you were to take those passages out of the Bible and put them on a paper & ask me, 'what is the message these passages are trying to convey?' It would still mean the same thing, this is my opinion. Obviously people are free to decide otherwise. I have no personal stake in someone else's relationships (or lack thereof) with a higher power
Just taking the words at face value, your right. But politicians use the same tactic by taking certain words of their opponent at face value and ignoring the context hoping no one will look into it.

The laws of the Old Testament do not apply the same way as the do in the New Testament under the New Covenant. If you read these verses in context with the rest of the passage, there is an obvious idolatry connection as it is talked about. The verses in the old testament are in the context of rules for priests and in Romans 1 Paul even says it is because of their worshiping of animal statues that God gave them over to this lifestyle. Now that doesn't necessarily mean Paul would have endorsed non-idolatrous homosexuality as it exists today, but it does at least make these verses suspicious in what they are addressing.
 
Old 12-23-2011, 04:32 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Just taking the words at face value, your right. But politicians use the same tactic by taking certain words of their opponent at face value and ignoring the context hoping no one will look into it.

The laws of the Old Testament do not apply the same way as the do in the New Testament under the New Covenant. If you read these verses in context with the rest of the passage, there is an obvious idolatry connection as it is talked about. The verses in the old testament are in the context of rules for priests and in Romans 1 Paul even says it is because of their worshiping of animal statues that God gave them over to this lifestyle. Now that doesn't necessarily mean Paul would have endorsed non-idolatrous homosexuality as it exists today, but it does at least make these verses suspicious in what they are addressing.

Yes, suspicious being the key word here -- as I said before, everyone has their opinions. Nothing is set in stone. There's a hundred different opinions/interpretations in this thread alone. I don't want to go in circles over it. So be it.
 
Old 12-23-2011, 04:35 PM
 
1,472 posts, read 911,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
JrHockey. You are correct about the fact that the Old Testament prohibits certain behavior that is not condemned in the New Testament. The reason is that God gave laws to the Old Testament Jews to regulate their society, like punishment for certain sins, crimes etc. God was establishing a theocracy, a nation regulated by God's laws. He also had the moral law, the Basic 10 Commandments, and also ceremonial laws, which regulated worship of God, sacrifices, the building of the ark, food regulations, etc. All this was wiped out for New Testament Christians, except the moral laws. Why? The ceremonial laws don't apply since the temple and sacrifices have all been destroyed. The intention was that these sacrifices would point to the one ultimate sacrifice that would pay for all sins, Jesus death on the cross. The civil laws don't apply since the theocracy is no more, and never will be again. The moral laws are reiterated in the New Testament and are given so that Christians would understand their duties as Christians, and explain how to "love your neighbor as yourself" Part of that includes prohibitions for Christians against any sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage.
I agree with the majority of what you said, but again, the bottom part is a can of worms that when opened could cause thread derailment.. beware! lol
 
Old 12-23-2011, 05:01 PM
 
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My interpretation of the Bible verse about homosexuality is that it's okay to be gay, but it's a sin to have sex with the same gender.
 
Old 12-23-2011, 05:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
No it's not. I will copy what I posted to another forum member about those verses. The Hebrew is not the same as English. I will also remind you those laws were exclusively for the Israelites. Until we start executing people who work on Saturday too, citing the above verses is pure hypocrisy.


1) Why does,"as with a woman" exist in that verse? Why doesn't it say, "A man shall not lie with a man"? There is a conditional clause added for a reason, even if you only look at the English.

2) Are you aware that "to lie" with a man, and "to lie" with a woman are 2 entirely different words in Hebrew that don't mean the same thing? English does not make that distinction, and the first "to lie" is always used in the Bible to refer to forced/deceptive sexual behavior, for example, Lot's daughters getting him drunk and raping him is the same word "to lie" as in the above verse. Are you also aware, in Hebrew, the "as with a woman" phrase, while it doesn't make much sense in Hebrew or English, most closely means "in the lyings of woman". This may either refer to the crime being done in a woman's bed, or making a man submissive like would be acceptable to do to a woman since they were mere sexual property. This again, is a patriarchal cultural issue.

3) If you look at the way Leviticus is structured, you'll see that the verse in question is in an odd place. It makes an abrupt jump and specifically spells out that the verse in question is referring to the pagan worship practices of the Egyptians and Caananites. It's a direct reference to heterosexual men, going into the temples of the god Molech, drinking/doing drugs for a state of europhia, while paying the temple prostitutes for sex in order to bring favor from the fertility goddesses. It is 100% cultural, and the Israelites were forbidden from engaging in pagan prostitution, so as to not be connected to the Egyptians and Caananites ( a theme, well established in the Bible where God set the Israelites apart from the rest of society). See Deuteronomy 23 which specifically says Israelites are not to become temple prostitutes.

4) The word abomination in those verses does not mean that in Hebrew. In Hebrew, it's To'evah, which means taboo or ritually impure. This goes directly to the above reference that it was taboo for the Israelites to engage in the pagan practices of their surrounding cultures, specifically pagan prostitution.

5) If we look at how Jewish law works, in order for the charge of a crime to be brought forward, there had to be numerous conditions met. Jewish law hard arguably one of the most impossible burdens of proof in human history. It was essentially impossible to ever meet it. Consensual, same-sex relations in one's home would NEVER EVER meet the burden of proof under Jewish law. It had to be a public crime, with lots of witnesses, and only pagan prostitution would fit that charge. No man has ever been charged with the crime of homosexuality according to the Talmud.

And 6) There are 613 laws in the Torah. Christians might follow a dozen of them by accident. The Torah law was written for the Israelites, not for Christians. So until you start executing people who work on Saturdays, stoning rape victims and children who badmouth their parents, or view wearing mixed fabrics or entering the temple with eyeglasses as abominations, you have no business EVER citing Leviticus to condemn anyone. The Torah does not apply to anyone in the modern era except Haredi Jews, and even they can't follow the majority of it.
How hard you try to justify deviant sexual behavior!

You said this...'2) Are you aware that "to lie" with a man, and "to lie" with a woman are 2 entirely different words in Hebrew that don't mean the same thing? English does not make that distinction, and the first "to lie" is always used in the Bible to refer to forced/deceptive sexual behavior, for example, Lot's daughters getting him drunk and raping him is the same word "to lie" as in the above verse.'

In Lev 18:22 the word tiš·kaḇ - shakab, is used once in the verse with reference to both the man and the woman.

It translates as 'You shall not lie with a male as with a female; it is an abomination.'

You claim that the first 'to lie' is always used in the Bible to refer to forced/deceptive sexual behavior. Again, in the Hebrew the word 'lie' in Lev 18:22 is found only once.

Are you suggesting that the verse is saying 'you shall not rape a male as you rape a female.'?

Here is what tiš·kaḇ - shakab means.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
cast down, lay self down, make to lie down, down to sleep, still with, lodge, ravish,

A primitive root; to lie down (for rest, sexual connection, decease or any other purpose) -- X at all, cast down, ((lover-))lay (self) (down), (make to) lie (down, down to sleep, still with), lodge, ravish, take rest, sleep, stay.
Strong's Hebrew: 7901. ?????? (shakab) -- to lie down

Ravish is only one of the meanings of the word.

Homosexual sex is a sin in any period of human history. The New Testament condemns it as does the Old Testament.
 
Old 12-23-2011, 05:57 PM
 
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"You shall not lie down in a woman’s bed, even with that of another woman."

Her bed shall be undefiled, free from stain or blemish.
 
Old 12-23-2011, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
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Schmidy: Jesus teaching not only condemns the sinful acts but even the sinful desires.

Mt 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ Mt 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.

Mt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus says "You can't love God and money".

Now let me explain. The Jews of Jesus day thought they were fulfilling the law by their actions even though in their hearts they were full of greed, selfishness and hatred for their fellow man. If people take Jesus seriously, then they would have to conclude that no one can be saved based on their own keeping of the law. This is exactly right, by their works and keeping of the law, no one can be saved. This is why Jesus came. He came to fulfull the law, and to die on the cross to pay for the sins of all mankind, and Jesus offers this forgiveness to all who repent of their sins, and ask Jesus for the forgiveness that he gives to all who trust in Him above all things.
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