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Old 12-23-2011, 11:06 PM
 
14,660 posts, read 7,681,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidty223 View Post
My interpretation of the Bible verse about homosexuality is that it's okay to be gay, but it's a sin to have sex with the same gender.
Ok, so what should a gay person do? I'm going to take a guess you'll say celibacy is the only option, and yet even Paul says most people were not given that gift. If God didn't bless you with celibacy, you will not be able to live a celibate life.

 
Old 12-23-2011, 11:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Homosexual sex is a sin in any period of human history. The New Testament condemns it as does the Old Testament.
You can keep supporting false beliefs all you want. I frankly don't care what you believe, and I will continue to support gays, and oppose Conservative/Fundamentalist/Evangelical extremist views as I consider them a detriment and disgrace to Christianity.
 
Old 12-24-2011, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Seattle/Kent,WA
224 posts, read 330,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
You can keep supporting false beliefs all you want. I frankly don't care what you believe, and I will continue to support gays, and oppose Conservative/Fundamentalist/Evangelical extremist views as I consider them a detriment and disgrace to Christianity.
 
Old 12-24-2011, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
12,587 posts, read 8,419,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
No it's not. I will copy what I posted to another forum member about those verses. The Hebrew is not the same as English. I will also remind you those laws were exclusively for the Israelites. Until we start executing people who work on Saturday too, citing the above verses is pure hypocrisy.


1) Why does,"as with a woman" exist in that verse? Why doesn't it say, "A man shall not lie with a man"? There is a conditional clause added for a reason, even if you only look at the English.

2) Are you aware that "to lie" with a man, and "to lie" with a woman are 2 entirely different words in Hebrew that don't mean the same thing? English does not make that distinction, and the first "to lie" is always used in the Bible to refer to forced/deceptive sexual behavior, for example, Lot's daughters getting him drunk and raping him is the same word "to lie" as in the above verse. Are you also aware, in Hebrew, the "as with a woman" phrase, while it doesn't make much sense in Hebrew or English, most closely means "in the lyings of woman". This may either refer to the crime being done in a woman's bed, or making a man submissive like would be acceptable to do to a woman since they were mere sexual property. This again, is a patriarchal cultural issue.

3) If you look at the way Leviticus is structured, you'll see that the verse in question is in an odd place. It makes an abrupt jump and specifically spells out that the verse in question is referring to the pagan worship practices of the Egyptians and Caananites. It's a direct reference to heterosexual men, going into the temples of the god Molech, drinking/doing drugs for a state of europhia, while paying the temple prostitutes for sex in order to bring favor from the fertility goddesses. It is 100% cultural, and the Israelites were forbidden from engaging in pagan prostitution, so as to not be connected to the Egyptians and Caananites ( a theme, well established in the Bible where God set the Israelites apart from the rest of society). See Deuteronomy 23 which specifically says Israelites are not to become temple prostitutes.

4) The word abomination in those verses does not mean that in Hebrew. In Hebrew, it's To'evah, which means taboo or ritually impure. This goes directly to the above reference that it was taboo for the Israelites to engage in the pagan practices of their surrounding cultures, specifically pagan prostitution.

5) If we look at how Jewish law works, in order for the charge of a crime to be brought forward, there had to be numerous conditions met. Jewish law hard arguably one of the most impossible burdens of proof in human history. It was essentially impossible to ever meet it. Consensual, same-sex relations in one's home would NEVER EVER meet the burden of proof under Jewish law. It had to be a public crime, with lots of witnesses, and only pagan prostitution would fit that charge. No man has ever been charged with the crime of homosexuality according to the Talmud.

And 6) There are 613 laws in the Torah. Christians might follow a dozen of them by accident. The Torah law was written for the Israelites, not for Christians. So until you start executing people who work on Saturdays, stoning rape victims and children who badmouth their parents, or view wearing mixed fabrics or entering the temple with eyeglasses as abominations, you have no business EVER citing Leviticus to condemn anyone. The Torah does not apply to anyone in the modern era except Haredi Jews, and even they can't follow the majority of it.
Superb post Fiyero...though I fear it is wasted here.
 
Old 12-24-2011, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Seattle/Kent,WA
224 posts, read 330,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Superb post Fiyero...though I fear it is wasted here.
 
Old 12-24-2011, 07:56 PM
 
Location: FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
Because it's one of the few issues most Christians will never personally have to deal with. Divorce, adultery, greed, obesity, pre-marital sex, envy, anger, etc. etc. are all VERY VERY common among Christians (particularly conservatives). However, most of them will never be faced with the issue of being gay, and therefore it's an easy target. Add to that a few out of context, English quote mined verses that were corrupted by conservative Bible publishers, stick a bow on it, and you've got a recipe for gays being hated and demonized.
Don't know about the Bible verses and won't argue about what they mean or don't mean. I really don't care.

I have to disagree with you though when you say that most Christians don't have go face being gay. I know for a fact that isn't true.

They might be better at hiding it. And it might be more difficult for them to be open about their feelings, but I'm pretty sure that being Christian, doesn't biologically make a person less likely to be gay. It might just be more painful to accept it.
 
Old 12-24-2011, 08:11 PM
 
14,660 posts, read 7,681,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
Don't know about the Bible verses and won't argue about what they mean or don't mean. I really don't care.

I have to disagree with you though when you say that most Christians don't have go face being gay. I know for a fact that isn't true.

They might be better at hiding it. And it might be more difficult for them to be open about their feelings, but I'm pretty sure that being Christian, doesn't biologically make a person less likely to be gay. It might just be more painful to accept it.
I'm not saying it makes them less likely. I'm merely saying, statistically, less than 5% of the population identifies as gay. If you factor in bisexuals, you might approach 10% of people who claim to have same-sex attractions. Meaning, 90% of Christians will not be faced with same-sex attractions.

Therefore, based on current statistics, my point stands - most Christians will never be faced with that struggle, and that's why it makes it an easy target.
 
Old 12-24-2011, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,140,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
I'm not saying it makes them less likely. I'm merely saying, statistically, less than 5% of the population identifies as gay. If you factor in bisexuals, you might approach 10% of people who claim to have same-sex attractions. Meaning, 90% of Christians will not be faced with same-sex attractions.

Therefore, based on current statistics, my point stands - most Christians will never be faced with that struggle, and that's why it makes it an easy target.
Yes, they are an easy target. Do the churches ever condemn greed, lust, gossip, etc...??? Or do they only fixate on gays and a woman's right to choose whether or not to be pregnant. And has anyone ever heard a sermon preaching on the evil of child pornography? Why isn't fighting child porn an important political issue? It should be. I believe our government could shut down a lot of on-line pornography if they wanted to. I'm veering off topic, so I'll let it rest.
 
Old 12-25-2011, 12:00 AM
 
3,337 posts, read 2,279,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Yes, they are an easy target. Do the churches ever condemn greed, lust, gossip, etc...??? Or do they only fixate on gays and a woman's right to choose whether or not to be pregnant. And has anyone ever heard a sermon preaching on the evil of child pornography? Why isn't fighting child porn an important political issue? It should be. I believe our government could shut down a lot of on-line pornography if they wanted to. I'm veering off topic, so I'll let it rest.
Decent one's do.

Haven't heard much condemnation of Gays from the pulpit.

Most churches have groups for porn addicts....

I find it interesting though that you put all of those other sins along with homosexuality. Sounds like your beef is with hypocrisy, or targeting only certain sins.
 
Old 12-25-2011, 12:02 AM
 
3,234 posts, read 4,756,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I originally posted this over in the thread about gay rights, but then I decided to start a new thread on it here since it is basically a different topic.

Many claim that evangelical Christians misinterpret the Bible to support their stance against homosexuality. In light of that, I'd like to bring up a passage of scripture to consider: Romans 1:18-32 (ESV, emphasis added). I've read this passage many times, and I cannot see how it could be interpreted in any other way than as a condemnation of homosexuality as well as other sins:



The text clearly indicates that:
  • homosexuality is the result of a divine judgment brought about by idolatry (verses 23 and 25)
  • the acts are described as "dishonoring of their bodies among themselves" (v. 24)
  • God gave them over to "impurity" (v. 24)
  • the passions are called "dishonorable" (v. 26)
  • the relations are called "contrary to nature" (v. 26)
  • the acts are called "shameless" (v. 27)
Therefore, the import of this text is that homosexuality is wrong. No excuse is made for it, and it is described as both wrong and opposed to God, as are the other sins listed in verses 29-31.
This topic has been debated quite heatedly on this forum before and since the topic on homosexuality has been discussed many times in this forum, I wanted to come at it from a different spin because in order for me to make my point clear about the bible only endorsing heterosexuality over homosexuality, I need to first discuss how many times fornication is discussed in the bible.

The word fornication is derived from the Greek word,"porneia" , and is normally translated in the King James Version of the Bible as "fornication." The word porn and pornography comes from this same Greek word. There are 32 verses in the original Greek versions of the Christian Scriptures that contain the word. It means illicit sexual intercourse adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11, metaph. the worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols.

Some examples are:
Matthew 5:32: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery..."

Romans 1:29-31: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"

1 Corinthians 5:1: "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

1 Corinthians 7:2: "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

Galatians 5:19-20: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies..."

Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Revelation 18:3: "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

What's very interesting about many of these verses that deal with fornication or porneia is that they are used in the context of heterosexuals fornicating. I make this point because homosexuals are excluded because of them already being turned over by God to a reprobate mind as Romans 1:28 clearly shows.

The point I am making is that (some scriptures translates the Greek Word adokimos in Romans 1:28 as , reprobate KJV, vile or debased NKJV). The Greek word here is very crucial in understanding what Paul is arguing in context for that time period, and in context for anyone who turns away from God. Adokimos can be defined as: not standing the test, not approved properly used of metals and coins that which does not prove itself such as it ought unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

Knowing this, would it make sense that a person who can not stand up to God's test,who's mind has become reprobate, debased or vile could be born again to enter into His kingdom? The point Paul clearly makes in the context of that time is that he is writing to the Romans who already knew and fully understood that it was unnatural for them to have homosexual sex when so many men and women were already engaging in that unnatural act. The mere fact that this is even mentioned in Romans should be a wake up call for anyone who may be HABITUALLY engaging in any of those sins.

The key thing to note in these verses is that these people Paul is referring to were not TRULY BORN AGAIN and that they were formerly professing Christians who did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in their hearts. These same people reverted to Paganism, and who engaged in ritual sexual behavior as a part of their newly adopted Pagan services. During these rituals, the Pagans were whipped into such a state of sexual frenzy that they went against their heterosexual nature and started engaging in sexual behavior with members of the same sex.

Its quite clear that Paul condemns such behavior. He concludes that Pagan worship will inevitably leads to other negative behavior: "...unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, [and] unmerciful." Therefore, God, who is a God of order, never intended for a man to natually sleep with a man or a woman to naturally sleep with a woman. Had it been so, I strongly believe that we all would have been born hermaphadites, and this issue would not be even an issue today.

If we go to Genesis 2:18, 22-24, it says : And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. This scripture clearly sums it all up; the union between a man and a woman is set by God's natural order and plan. You don't have to be a Greek scholar to understand what God's main purpose for Man was in those verses.

It is clear that Adam, a man, needs companionship, and a woman offers him that as a blessing from God. Also, it is evident that sexual intercourse results in a man and woman becoming one flesh. We can call two gay men or lesbian women together as natural as a heterosexual couple's union, but the reality of the matter is that it is not natural at all. Two men may be able to have sexual intercourse, but that type of intercourse that they are having is not natural nor is a man's anus naturally designed for anal intercourse the way a woman's vagina is designed for it. God designed the anus as a muscle to EXCRETE WASTE from the body, not to inject any thing in it as to simulate the NATURAL INTERCOURSE BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN.

I keep hearing the argument that the bible really doesn't teach against being a homosexual, and that the English translations are poor translations to condemn homosexuality. I'm also hearing that a gay person is born this way, and as a result of being born this way, it is as natural for him to be gay as it is as natural for a person to be straight. He is not sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and therefore, if God is love then He understands, knows this person's heart, and allows this person to be gay without any condemnation. A straight man can make the same argument about being born straight, that he's a sex addict, he just can't stop sleeping around with multiple women, and because if he tries to commit and get married, all he's going to do is cheat on his wife. So since he's a sex addict, God knows his heart and therefore he should be given a pass as well.

WE AREN'T GIVEN ANY EXCUSES FOR SIN. The bible teaches that our sins are forgiven when we accept Jesus Christ into our lives, Repent of our sins, and as a result of that become truly Born Again so that we don't continue to habitually drown in sin after God called us to Him. Jesus said in Luke 9:23 that if anyone desires to come after Me, let him DENY himself, and take up his CROSS daily, and follow me. All we must do is follow Jesus, obey God's commandments, and stop using EXCUSES for why it's ok to FORNICATE AND LIVE IN SIN, WHEN NO MATTER HOW YOU WANT TO TWIST GOD'S WORD, A HABITUAL FORNICATOR WILL NOT SEE NOR ENTER GOD'S KINGDOMbe it a gay, lesbian, or straight christian.
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