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Old 12-25-2011, 02:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
This topic has been debated quite heatedly on this forum before and since the topic on homosexuality has been discussed many times in this forum, I wanted to come at it from a different spin because in order for me to make my point clear about the bible only endorsing heterosexuality over homosexuality, I need to first discuss how many times fornication is discussed in the bible.

The word fornication is derived from the Greek word,"porneia" , and is normally translated in the King James Version of the Bible as "fornication." The word porn and pornography comes from this same Greek word. There are 32 verses in the original Greek versions of the Christian Scriptures that contain the word. It means illicit sexual intercourse adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11, metaph. the worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols.

Some examples are:
Matthew 5:32: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery..."

Romans 1:29-31: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"

1 Corinthians 5:1: "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

1 Corinthians 7:2: "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

Galatians 5:19-20: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies..."

Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Revelation 18:3: "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

What's very interesting about many of these verses that deal with fornication or porneia is that they are used in the context of heterosexuals fornicating. I make this point because homosexuals are excluded because of them already being turned over by God to a reprobate mind as Romans 1:28 clearly shows.

The point I am making is that (some scriptures translates the Greek Word adokimos in Romans 1:28 as , reprobate KJV, vile or debased NKJV). The Greek word here is very crucial in understanding what Paul is arguing in context for that time period, and in context for anyone who turns away from God. Adokimos can be defined as: not standing the test, not approved properly used of metals and coins that which does not prove itself such as it ought unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

Knowing this, would it make sense that a person who can not stand up to God's test,who's mind has become reprobate, debased or vile could be born again to enter into His kingdom? The point Paul clearly makes in the context of that time is that he is writing to the Romans who already knew and fully understood that it was unnatural for them to have homosexual sex when so many men and women were already engaging in that unnatural act. The mere fact that this is even mentioned in Romans should be a wake up call for anyone who may be HABITUALLY engaging in any of those sins.

The key thing to note in these verses is that these people Paul is referring to were not TRULY BORN AGAIN and that they were formerly professing Christians who did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in their hearts. These same people reverted to Paganism, and who engaged in ritual sexual behavior as a part of their newly adopted Pagan services. During these rituals, the Pagans were whipped into such a state of sexual frenzy that they went against their heterosexual nature and started engaging in sexual behavior with members of the same sex.

Its quite clear that Paul condemns such behavior. He concludes that Pagan worship will inevitably leads to other negative behavior: "...unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, [and] unmerciful." Therefore, God, who is a God of order, never intended for a man to natually sleep with a man or a woman to naturally sleep with a woman. Had it been so, I strongly believe that we all would have been born hermaphadites, and this issue would not be even an issue today.

If we go to Genesis 2:18, 22-24, it says : And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. This scripture clearly sums it all up; the union between a man and a woman is set by God's natural order and plan. You don't have to be a Greek scholar to understand what God's main purpose for Man was in those verses.

It is clear that Adam, a man, needs companionship, and a woman offers him that as a blessing from God. Also, it is evident that sexual intercourse results in a man and woman becoming one flesh. We can call two gay men or lesbian women together as natural as a heterosexual couple's union, but the reality of the matter is that it is not natural at all. Two men may be able to have sexual intercourse, but that type of intercourse that they are having is not natural nor is a man's anus naturally designed for anal intercourse the way a woman's vagina is designed for it. God designed the anus as a muscle to EXCRETE WASTE from the body, not to inject any thing in it as to simulate the NATURAL INTERCOURSE BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN.

I keep hearing the argument that the bible really doesn't teach against being a homosexual, and that the English translations are poor translations to condemn homosexuality. I'm also hearing that a gay person is born this way, and as a result of being born this way, it is as natural for him to be gay as it is as natural for a person to be straight. He is not sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and therefore, if God is love then He understands, knows this person's heart, and allows this person to be gay without any condemnation. A straight man can make the same argument about being born straight, that he's a sex addict, he just can't stop sleeping around with multiple women, and because if he tries to commit and get married, all he's going to do is cheat on his wife. So since he's a sex addict, God knows his heart and therefore he should be given a pass as well.

WE AREN'T GIVEN ANY EXCUSES FOR SIN. The bible teaches that our sins are forgiven when we accept Jesus Christ into our lives, Repent of our sins, and as a result of that become truly Born Again so that we don't continue to habitually drown in sin after God called us to Him. Jesus said in Luke 9:23 that if anyone desires to come after Me, let him DENY himself, and take up his CROSS daily, and follow me. All we must do is follow Jesus, obey God's commandments, and stop using EXCUSES for why it's ok to FORNICATE AND LIVE IN SIN, WHEN NO MATTER HOW YOU WANT TO TWIST GOD'S WORD, A HABITUAL FORNICATOR WILL NOT SEE NOR ENTER GOD'S KINGDOMbe it a gay, lesbian, or straight christian.
So you support same-sex marriage then? Great!

 
Old 12-25-2011, 04:12 AM
 
14,733 posts, read 7,507,318 times
Reputation: 1233
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
This topic has been debated quite heatedly on this forum before and since the topic on homosexuality has been discussed many times in this forum, I wanted to come at it from a different spin because in order for me to make my point clear about the bible only endorsing heterosexuality over homosexuality, I need to first discuss how many times fornication is discussed in the bible.
Who is Mystery Babylon, as Revelation 17:5 reads:

And upon her forehead was a name written; THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God,
despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful
."

 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:20 AM
 
Location: US
23,213 posts, read 11,866,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
You can keep supporting false beliefs all you want. I frankly don't care what you believe, and I will continue to support gays, and oppose Conservative/Fundamentalist/Evangelical extremist views as I consider them a detriment and disgrace to Christianity.
You have to be a Christian first before you can find something to be a disgrace to Christianity..Moderator cut: sarcasm

Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-25-2011 at 04:32 PM..
 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:22 AM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,028,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I originally posted this over in the thread about gay rights, but then I decided to start a new thread on it here since it is basically a different topic.

Many claim that evangelical Christians misinterpret the Bible to support their stance against homosexuality. In light of that, I'd like to bring up a passage of scripture to consider: Romans 1:18-32 (ESV, emphasis added). I've read this passage many times, and I cannot see how it could be interpreted in any other way than as a condemnation of homosexuality as well as other sins:



The text clearly indicates that:
  • homosexuality is the result of a divine judgment brought about by idolatry (verses 23 and 25)
  • the acts are described as "dishonoring of their bodies among themselves" (v. 24)
  • God gave them over to "impurity" (v. 24)
  • the passions are called "dishonorable" (v. 26)
  • the relations are called "contrary to nature" (v. 26)
  • the acts are called "shameless" (v. 27)
Therefore, the import of this text is that homosexuality is wrong. No excuse is made for it, and it is described as both wrong and opposed to God, as are the other sins listed in verses 29-31.

Confirmation: You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-25-2011 at 04:33 PM.. Reason: red font is reserved for moderatin
 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:25 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
No. Not in the original languages and cultural contexts.
Yea, it does...In the Greek culture, pederaiste was considered normal behavior not in the Hebrew culture...Do your research...
 
Old 12-25-2011, 05:43 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeThinkerInTex View Post
Sometimes it's as though you can hear Noah's hammer ringing.
In other words, There's a Storm a brewin'...
 
Old 12-25-2011, 06:02 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I never said that. You're just reading that into what I wrote. I wrote that heterosexual acts are not mentioned in the text. It stands to reason that since they're not mentioned, Paul had something else in view when he wrote the text, namely, homosexuality. The lack of mention of something doesn't constitute approval of it.

Also, what specific text in the epistle to the Romans indicates that they were lapsing back into their pagan beliefs?

By the way, I'm interested in hearing your responses to the other points I've brought up, not only in my last post but in my bulleted points as well.
He could be possibly getting it from here, because paul opens the letter and identifies his audience as those beloved of God and then in the beginning of chapter 2 seems to chastize them, and where it is asking if they think they will escape God's Judgement, it is pretty obvious that he is addressing believers and this also leads me to believe that that same implication of God's Judgement is a temporal one for believers, for if Paul was addressing believers, as the opening of the letter clarifies, if, by there behavior, they would be eternally punished, then I believe Paul would not have identified them as beloved of God, he would have addressed them elsewise, and I doubt he was addressing the non-believer, for they would not listen anyway, and his letter was addressed to the church, I've never seen an Apostolic letter addressed to non-believers:


Rom 1:18 For God's wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, holding the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
Rom 1:21 Because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful. But they became vain in their reasonings, and their undiscerning heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became foolish
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Because of this, God gave them up to impurity in the lusts of their hearts, their bodies to be dishonored among themselves,
Rom 1:25 who changed the truth of God into the lie, and worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 Because of this, God gave them up to dishonorable passions, for even their females changed the natural use to that contrary to nature.
Rom 1:27 And likewise, the males also forsaking the natural use of the female burned in their lust toward one another, males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving back within themselves the reward which was fitting for their error.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, iniquity, covetousness, malice, being full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, evil habits, becoming whisperers,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, proud, braggarts, devisers of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without discernment, covenant breakers, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful,
Rom 1:32 who knowing the righteous order of God, that those practicing such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also approve those practicing them.
Rom 2:1 Therefore, O man, you are without excuse, everyone who judges, for in that in which you judge the other, you condemn yourself; for you, those judging, practice the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth on those that practice such things.
Rom 2:3 And, O man, the one judging those practicing such things, and doing them, do you think that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and the long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up to yourself wrath in a day of wrath, and revelation of a righteous judgment of God?
 
Old 12-25-2011, 06:09 AM
 
Location: US
23,213 posts, read 11,866,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
Actually if people minded their own business and get over the antiquated ideas their would be nothing to discriminate over.
Ahhh...So that is where our moral, standards and principle went...To the land of Antiquation...Hawyaw is Antiquated...
 
Old 12-25-2011, 07:34 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 10,813,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yea, it does...In the Greek culture, pederaiste was considered normal behavior not in the Hebrew culture...Do your research...
I suggest you do some research yourself as you appear to be confused. Leviticus chapters 18 and 20 were warning the Hebrews about idolatrous Canaanite cultural and religious practices, not Greek cultural practices.

Even in Greek culture where all things male were exalted, it was not acceptable for 2 adult men to have a romantic/sexual relationship with each other. The Greek practice of pederasty (which probably originated from the Spartans) between an older male 'mentor' and a younger male 'beardless' teen, is not the same as having a homosexual orientation as we understand it today. Many men who practiced pederasty at that time would have been heterosexual and were not at all attracted to adult males. It was a sign of dominant masculinity and a male 'privilege' for an adult male citizen to use a submissive partner for sex- whether the person was a young male or a slave or a woman. You probably aren't aware that pederasty was actually illegal under Athenian law, as was adultery.

As for the New Testament:

In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul used the word arsenokoités (ἀρσενοκοίτης), which never meant "homosexuals" in any Greek secular writings at that time or since - despite the prejudiced and poor 'scholarship' of some conservative translators since the 1950's.

Paul could have used several Greek words if he had meant to refer to "homosexuals". He didn't.

Last edited by Ceist; 12-25-2011 at 09:01 AM..
 
Old 12-25-2011, 07:52 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 10,813,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Ahhh...So that is where our moral, standards and principle went...To the land of Antiquation...Hawyaw is Antiquated...
Do you really want to live by the 'moral standards and principles' of men who condoned slavery and treated women and children as property? Who believed that virgins who were raped should marry their rapists or be stoned? Or believed that it was okay for a father to offer his virgin daughters up to a mob to be gang-raped? Or men who thought that their god wanted them to slaughter all the men, women and children of neighboring tribes but keep all the young virgin girls for themselves?(after giving the Lord his share of the booty of course). Or that children who cursed their parents should be stoned? Or that women who were not virgins when they married should be stoned?

The biblical writers lived in a primitive patriarchal and rather brutal culture - is that what you want to live by in the 21st century?
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